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    marye
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    In one of the other topics, one of the folks seemed not to be so sure of the reception he'd get for saying he was a youth minister at his church. In my experience, Deadheads span the full spectrum from Agnostic to Zoroastrian. I've met atheist Deadheads, Muslim Deadheads, Buddhist Deadheads, Catholic Deadheads, Jewish Deadheads, and Wiccan Deadheads. My Deadhead friends are all over the map on this stuff, and as far as I'm concerned one of the real richnesses of the scene is the ability to see how things look to other folks and, sometimes, experience it from their world. Believe it if you need it, if you don't, just pass it on. But talk about it here, and please maintain a safe respectful place to do so.

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  • marye
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    seriously.
    the part about Hunter being on tour was a dead giveaway... alas. People have been saying all kinds of loony stuff about the Dead since forever, and it's pretty much the case that you can find someone in the scene connected to pretty much anything over the span of 40-some years, and what it all means is probably pretty much in the eye of the beholder. Especially from the perspective of hindsight. I mean, it would be darn tough to reduce Owsley Stanley to a quickie formula like "Satanist CIA plot." Though I'm sure some have tried. And he's one guy in a real complex scene of notoriously freethinking types. So pay attention, and don't lose your critical thinking skills, but don't make yourself nuts, either. That would be my opinion anyway.
  • TigerLilly
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    Sherbear <3
    TOTALLY interesting and informational post on masons! :) But yeah Gonzo was being ironic about masons being satanists :)
  • Anonymous (not verified)
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    @Sherbear
    I don't think my post was the offending one. I was making the point that Masonry has nothing to do with Satanism and the temple near me is in decline though they do many good things for the poor and elderly in their community. I think the posts that should have been deleted are the ones that linked Masonry and Satanism. In fact, I was commenting on the illegitimacy of linking the two.
  • sherbear
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  • sherbear
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    I love the FreeMasons and for one to insult by false association to some evil thing is not only misguided but hurtful. Mason's are some of the greatest men to ever walk this earth. I have been raised by one and he is, always has been and will never cease to be one the greatest men in the world. The kindest, most generous, loving, faithful, dedicated, trustworthy, hard-working, truth-seeking, friend of all, beloved, unblemished individuals I have ever met. And I am proud to emulate him at every given chance. Our local Masons have contributed to every field of study, make break-though scientific research and surgeries to heal and nuture the sick and prevent death as Doctors do. For any post to reflect a Freemason associated with any malpractice on children or organ donations should be removed. (Might be time to clean up the house.) I will post true and accurate information about the Masons in a moment and it should all be read. AND WHEN YOU GET TO THE PART THAT READS.... When is a Man a Mason? Then decide if that's the kind of man you speak of? And how could you judge if you don't even know? To be a child of a Mason is the greatest honor known to many, I included. Straight sober tonight and not thowing punches just making a point.. WHAT IS A FREE & ACCEPTED MASON What’s a Mason? That’s not a surprising question. Even though Masons (Freemasons) are members of the largest and oldest fraternity in the world, and even though almost everyone has a father or grandfather or uncle who was a Mason, many people aren’t quite certain just who Masons are. The answer is simple. A Mason (or Freemason) is a member of a fraternity known as Masonry (or Freemasonry). A fraternity is a group of men (just as a sorority is a group of women) who join together because: •There are things they want to do in the world. •There are things they want to do “inside their own minds.” •They enjoy being together with men they like and respect. (We’ll look at some of these things later.) What’s Masonry? Masonry (or Freemasonry) is the oldest fraternity in the world. No one knows just how old it is because the actual origins have been lost in time. Probably, it arose from the guilds of stonemasons who built the castles and cathedrals of the Middle Ages. Possibly, they were influenced by the Knights Templar, a group of Christian warrior monks formed in 1118 to help protect pilgrims making trips to the Holy Land. In 1717, Masonry created a formal organization in England when the first Grand Lodge was formed. A Grand Lodge is the administrative body in charge of Masonry in some geographical area. In the United States, there is a Grand Lodge in each state. In Canada, there is a Grand Lodge in each province. Local organizations of Masons are called lodges. There are lodges in most towns, and large cities usually have several. There are about 13,200 lodges in the United States. If Masonry started in Great Britain, how did it get to America? In a time when travel was by horseback and sailing ship, Masonry spread with amazing speed. By 1731, when Benjamin Franklin joined the fraternity, there were already several lodges in the Colonies, and Masonry spread rapidly as America expanded west. In addition to Franklin, many of the Founding Fathers — men such as George Washington, Paul Revere, Joseph Warren, and John Hancock — were Masons. Masons and Masonry played an important part in the Revolutionary War and an even more important part in the Constitutional Convention and the debates surrounding the ratification of the Bill of Rights. Many of those debates were held in Masonic lodges. What’s a lodge? The word “lodge” means both a group of Masons meeting in some place and the room or building in which they meet. Masonic buildings are also sometimes called “temples” because much of the symbolism Masonry uses to teach its lessons comes from the building of King Solomon’s Temple in the Holy Land. The term “lodge” itself comes from the structures which the stonemasons built against the sides of the cathedrals during construction. In winter, when building had to stop, they lived in these lodges and worked at carving stone. While there is some variation in detail from state to state and country to country, lodge rooms today are set up similar to the diagram on the following page. If you’ve ever watched C-SPAN’s coverage of the House of Commons in London, you’ll notice that the layout is about the same. Since Masonry came to America from England, we still use the English floor plan and English titles for the officers. The Worshipful Master of the Lodge sits in the East (“Worshipful” is an English term of respect which means the same thing as “Honorable.”) He is called the Master of the lodge for the same reason that the leader of an orchestra is called the “Concert Master.” It’s simply an older term for “Leader.” In other organizations, he would be called “President.” The Senior and Junior Wardens are the First and Second Vice-Presidents. The Deacons are messengers and the Stewards have charge of refreshments. Every lodge has an altar holding a “Volume of the Sacred Law.” In the United States and Canada, that is almost always a Bible. What goes on in a lodge? This is a good place to repeat what we said earlier about why men become Masons: •There are things they want to do in the world. •There are things they want to do “inside their own minds.” •They enjoy being together with men they like and respect. The Lodge is the center of those activities. Masonry Does Things in the World. Masonry teaches that each person has a responsibility to make things better in the world. Most individuals won’t be the ones to find a cure for cancer, or eliminate poverty, or help create world peace, but every man and woman and child can do something to help others and to make things a little better. Masonry is deeply involved with helping people — it spends more than $1.4 million dollars every day in the United States, just to make life a little easier. And the great majority of that help goes to people who are not Masons. Some of these charities are vast projects, like the Crippled Children’s Hospitals and Burns Institutes built by the Shriners. Also, Scottish Rite Masons maintain a nationwide network of over 100 Childhood Language Disorders Clinics, Centers, and Programs. Each helps children afflicted by such conditions as aphasia, dyslexia, stuttering, and related learning or speech disorders. Some services are less noticeable, like helping a widow pay her electric bill or buying coats and shoes for disadvantaged children. And there’s just about anything you can think of in-between. But with projects large or small, the Masons of a lodge try to help make the world a better place. The lodge gives them a way to combine with others to do even more good. Masonry does things “inside” the individual Mason. “Grow or die” is a great law of all nature. Most people feel a need for continued growth and development as individuals. They feel they are not as honest or as charitable or as compassionate or as loving or as trusting as they ought to be. Masonry reminds its members over and over again of the importance of these qualities. It lets men associate with other men of honor and integrity who believe that things like honesty and compassion and love and trust are important. In some ways, Masonry is a support group for men who are trying to make the right decisions. It’s easier to practice these virtues when you know that those around you think they are important, too, and won’t laugh at you. That’s a major reason that Masons enjoy being together. Masons enjoy each other’s company. It’s good to spend time with people you can trust completely, and most Masons find that in their lodge. While much of lodge activity is spent in works of charity or in lessons in self-development, much is also spent in fellowship. Lodges have picnics, camping trips, and many events for the whole family. Simply put, a lodge is a place to spend time with friends. For members only, two basic kinds of meetings take place in a lodge. The most common is a simple business meeting. To open and close the meeting, there is a ceremony whose purpose is to remind us of the virtues by which we are supposed to live. Then there is a reading of the minutes; voting on petitions (applications of men who want to join the fraternity); planning for charitable functions, family events, and other lodge activities; and sharing information about members (called “Brothers,” as in most fraternities) who are ill or have some sort of need. The other kind of meeting is one in which people join the fraternity — one at which the “degrees” are performed. But every lodge serves more than its own members. Frequently, there are meetings open to the public. Examples are Ladies’ Nights, “Brother Bring a Friend Nights,” public installations of officers, Cornerstone Laying ceremonies, and other special meetings supporting community events and dealing with topics of local interest. Masons also sponsor Ladies groups such as The Order of Eastern Star and Amaranth, and Youth Groups such as Triangle, Rainbow, Constellation, Job’s Daughters; for girls, and Order of DeMolay for Boys. What’s a degree? A degree is a stage or level of membership. It’s also the ceremony by which a man attains that level of membership. There are three, called Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason. As you can see, the names are taken from the craft guilds. In the Middle Ages, when a person wanted to join a craft, such as the gold smiths or the carpenters or the stonemasons, he was first apprenticed. As an apprentice, he learned the tools and skills of the trade. When he had proved his skills, he became a “Fellow of the Craft” (today we would say “Journeyman”), and when he had exceptional ability, he was known as a Master of the Craft. The degrees are plays in which the candidate participates. Each degree uses symbols to teach, just as plays did in the Middle Ages and as many theatrical productions do today. (We’ll talk about symbols a little later.) The Masonic degrees teach the great lessons of life — the importance of honor and integrity, of being a person on whom others can rely, of being both trusting and trustworthy, of realizing that you have a spiritual nature as well as a physical or animal nature, of the importance of self-control, of knowing how to love and be loved, of knowing how to keep confidential what others tell you so that they can “open up” without fear. Why is Masonry so “secretive”? It really isn’t “secretive,” although it sometimes has that reputation. Masons certainly don’t make a secret of the fact that they are members of the fraternity. We wear rings, lapel pins and tie tacks with Masonic emblems like the Square and Compasses, the best known of Masonic signs which, logically, recalls the fraternity’s roots in stonemasonry. Masonic buildings are clearly marked, and are usually listed in the phone book. Lodge activities are not secret picnics and other events are even listed in the newspapers, especially in smaller towns. Many lodges have answering machines which give the upcoming lodge activities. But there are some Masonic secrets, and they fall into two categories. The first are the ways in which a man can identify himself as a Mason — grips and passwords. We keep those private for obvious reasons. It is not at all unknown for unscrupulous people to try to pass themselves off as Masons in order to get assistance under false pretenses. The second group is harder to describe, but they are the ones Masons usually mean if we talk about “Masonic secrets.” They are secrets because they literally can’t be talked about, can’t be put into words. They are the changes that happen to a man when he really accepts responsibility for his own life and, at the same time, truly decides that his real happiness is in helping others. It’s a wonderful feeling, but it’s something you simply can’t explain to another person. That’s why we sometimes say that Masonic secrets cannot ( rather than “may not”) be told. Try telling someone exactly what you feel when you see a beautiful sunset, or when you hear music, like the national anthem, which suddenly stirs old memories, and you’ll understand what we mean. “Secret societies” became very popular in America in the late 1800s and early 1900s. There were literally hundreds of them, and most people belonged to two or three. Many of them were modeled on Masonry, and made a great point of having many “secrets.” And Masonry got ranked with them. But if Masonry is a secret society, it’s the worst-kept secret in town. For an example see the WABC-TV, Channel 7, New York City news report (streaming video RealPlayer required) that aired in May 1994 Is Masonry a religion? The answer to that question is simple. No. We do use ritual in the meetings, and because there is always an altar or table with the Volume of the Sacred Law open if a lodge is meeting, some people have confused Masonry with a religion, but it is not. That does not mean that religion plays no part in Masonry — it plays a very important part. A person who wants to become a Mason must have a belief in God. No atheist can ever become a Mason. Meetings open with prayer, and a Mason is taught, as one of the first lessons of Masonry, that one should pray for divine counsel and guidance before starting an important undertaking. But that does not make Masonry a “religion.” Sometimes people confuse Masonry with a religion because we call some Masonic buildings “temples.” But we use the word in the same sense that Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes called the Supreme Court a “Temple of Justice” and because a Masonic lodge is a symbol of the Temple of Solomon. Neither Masonry nor the Supreme Court is a religion just because its members meet in a “temple.” In some ways, the relationship between Masonry and religion is like the relationship between the Parent-Teacher Association (the P.T.A.) and education. Members of the P.T.A. believe in the importance of education. They support it. They assert that no man or woman can be a complete and whole individual or live up to his or her full potential without education. They encourage students to stay in school and parents to be involved with the education of their children. They may give scholarships. They encourage their members to get involved with and support their individual schools. But there are some things P.T.A.s do not do. They don’t teach. They don’t tell people which school to attend. They don’t try to tell people what they should study or what their major should be. In much the same way, Masons believe in the importance of religion. Masonry encourages every Mason to be active in the religion and church of his own choice. Masonry teaches that, without religion, a man is alone and lost, and that without religion, he can never reach his full potential. But Freemasonry does not tell a person which religion he should practice or how he should practice it. That is between the individual and God. That is the function of his house of worship, not his fraternity. And Masonry is a fraternity, not a religion. What is a Masonic Bible? Bibles are popular gifts among Masons, frequently given to a man when he joins the lodge or at other special events. A Masonic Bible is the same book anyone thinks of as a Bible (it’s usually the King James translation) with a special page in the front on which to write the name of the person who is receiving it and the occasion on which it is given. Sometimes there is a special index or information section which shows the person where in the Bible to find the passages which are quoted in the Masonic ritual. If Masonry isn’t a religion, why does it use ritual? Many of us may think of religion when we think of ritual, but ritual is used in every aspect of life. It’s so much a part of us that we just don’t notice it. Ritual simply means that some things are done more or less the same way each time. Almost all school assemblies, for example, start with the principal or some other official calling for the attention of the group. Then the group is led in the Pledge of Allegiance. A school choir or the entire group may sing the school song. That’s a ritual. Almost all business meetings of every sort call the group to order, have a reading of the minutes of the last meeting, deal with old business, then with new business. That’s a ritual. Most groups use Robert’s Rules of Order to conduct a meeting. That’s probably the best-known book of ritual in the world. There are social rituals which tell us how to meet people (we shake hands), how to join a conversation (we wait for a pause, and then speak), how to buy tickets to a concert (we wait in line and don’t push in ahead of those who were there first). There are literally hundreds of examples, and they are all rituals. Masonry uses a ritual because it’s an effective way to teach important ideas — the values we’ve talked about earlier. And it reminds us where we are, just as the ritual of a business meeting reminds people where they are and what they are supposed to be doing. Masonry’s ritual is very rich because it is so old. It has developed over centuries to contain some beautiful language and ideas expressed in symbols. But there’s nothing unusual in using ritual. All of us do it every day. Why does Masonry use symbols? Everyone uses symbols every day, just as we do ritual. We use them because they communicate quickly. When you see a stop sign , you know what it means, even if you can’t read the word “stop.” The circle and line mean “don’t” or “not allowed.” In fact, using symbols is probably the oldest way of communication and the oldest way of teaching. Masonry uses symbols for the same reason. Some form of the “Square and Compasses” is the most widely used and known symbol of Masonry. In one way, this symbol is a kind of trademark for the fraternity, as the “golden arches” are for McDonald’s. When you see the Square and Compasses on a building, you know that Masons meet there. And like all symbols, they have a meaning. The Square symbolizes things of the earth, and it also symbolizes honor, integrity, truthfulness, and the other ways we should relate to this world and the people in it. The Compasses symbolize things of the spirit, and the importance of a well-developed spiritual life, and also the importance of self-control — of keeping ourselves within bounds. The G stands for Geometry, the science which the ancients believed most revealed the glory of God and His works in the heavens, and it also stands for God, Who must be at the center of all our thoughts and of all our efforts. The meanings of most of the other Masonic symbols are obvious. The gavel teaches the importance of self-control and self-discipline. The hourglass teaches us that time is always passing, and we should not put off important decisions. So, is Masonry education? Yes. In a very real sense, education is at the center of Masonry. We have stressed its importance for a very long time. Back in the Middle Ages, schools were held in the lodges of stonemasons. You have to know a lot to build a cathedral — geometry, and structural engineering, and mathematics, just for a start. And that education was not very widely available. All the formal schools and colleges trained people for careers in the church, or in law or medicine. And you had to be a member of the social upper classes to go to those schools. Stonemasons did not come from the aristocracy. And so the lodges had to teach the necessary skills and information. Freemasonry’s dedication to education started there. It has continued. Masons started some of the first public schools in both Europe and America. We supported legislation to make education universal. In the 1800s Masons as a group lobbied for the establishment of state supported education and federal land grant colleges. Today we give millions of dollars in scholarships each year. We encourage our members to give volunteer time to their local schools, buy classroom supplies for teachers, help with literacy programs, and do everything they can to help assure that each person, adult or child, has the best educational opportunities possible. And Masonry supports continuing education and intellectual growth for its members, insisting that learning more about many things is important for anyone who wants to keep mentally alert and young. What does Masonry teach? Masonry teaches some important principles. There’s nothing very surprising in the list. Masonry teaches that: Since God is the Creator, all men and women are the children of God. Because of that, all men and women are brothers and sisters, entitled to dignity, respect for their opinions, and consideration of their feelings. Each person must take responsibility for his/her own life and actions. Neither wealth nor poverty, education nor ignorance, health nor sickness excuses any person from doing the best he or she can do or being the best person possible under the circumstances. No one has the right to tell another person what he or she must think or believe. Each man and woman has an absolute right to intellectual, spiritual, economic, and political freedom. This is a right given by God, not by man. All tyranny, in every form, is illegitimate. Each person must learn and practice self-control. Each person must make sure his spiritual nature triumphs over his animal nature. Another way to say the same thing is that even when we are tempted to anger, we must not be violent. Even when we are tempted to selfishness, we must be charitable. Even when we want to “write someone off,” we must remember that he or she is a human and entitled to our respect. Even when we want to give up, we must go on. Even when we are hated, we must return love, or, at a minimum, we must not hate back. It isn’t easy! Faith must be in the center of our lives. We find that faith in our houses of worship, not in Freemasonry, but Masonry constantly teaches that a person’s faith, whatever it may be, is central to a good life. Each person has a responsibly to be a good citizen, obeying the law. That doesn’t mean we can’t try to change things, but change must take place in legal ways. It is important to work to make this world better for all who live in it. Masonry teaches the importance of doing good, not because it assures a person’s entrance into heaven — that’s a question for a religion, not a fraternity — but because we have a duty to all other men and women to make their lives as fulfilling as they can be. Honor and integrity are essential to life. Life, without honor and integrity, is without meaning. What are the requirements for membership? The person who wants to join Masonry must be a man (it’s a fraternity), sound in body and mind, who believes in God, is at least the minimum age required by Masonry in his state, and has a good reputation. (Incidentally, the “sound in body” requirement — which comes from the stonemasons of the Middle Ages — doesn’t mean that a physically challenged man cannot be a Mason; many are). Those are the only “formal” requirements. But there are others, not so formal. He should believe in helping others. He should believe there is more to life than pleasure and money. He should be willing to respect the opinions of others. And he should want to grow and develop as a human being. How does a man become a Mason? Some men are surprised that no one has ever asked them to become a Mason. They may even feel that the Masons in their town don’t think they are “good enough” to join. But it doesn’t work that way. For hundreds of years, Masons have been forbidden to ask others to join the fraternity. We can talk to friends about Masonry, we can tell them about what Masonry does. We can tell them why we enjoy it. But we can’t ask, much less pressure anyone to join. There’s a good reason for that. It isn’t that we’re trying to be exclusive. But becoming a Mason is a very serious thing. Joining Masonry is making a permanent life commitment to live in certain ways. We’ve listed most of them above — to live with honor and integrity, to be willing to share and care about others, to trust each other, and to place ultimate trust in God. No one should be “talked into” making such a decision. So, when a man decides he wants to be a Mason, he asks a Mason for a petition or application. He fills it out and gives it to the Mason, and that Mason takes it to the local lodge. The Master of the lodge will appoint a committee to visit with the man and his family, find out a little about him and why he wants to be a Mason, tell him and his family about Masonry, and answer their questions. The committee reports to the lodge, and the lodge votes on the petition. If the vote is affirmative — and it usually is — the lodge will contact the man to set the date for the Entered Apprentice Degree. When the person has completed all three degrees, he is a Master Mason and a full member of the fraternity. So, what’s a Mason? A Mason is a man who has decided that he likes to feel good about himself and others. He cares about the future as well as the past, and does what he can, both alone and with others, to make the future good for everyone. Many men over many generations have answered the question, “What is a Mason?” One of the most eloquent was written by the Reverend Joseph Fort Newton, an internationally honored minister of the first half of the 20th Century. When is a man a Mason? When he can look out over the rivers, the hills, and the far horizon with a profound sense of his own littleness in the vast scheme of things, and yet have faith, hope, and courage which is the root of every virtue. When he knows that down in his heart every man is as noble, as vile, as divine, as diabolic, and as lonely as himself, and seeks to know, to forgive, and to love his fellow man. When he knows how to sympathize with men in their sorrows, yea, even in their sins knowing that each man fights a hard fight against many odds. When he has learned how to make friends and to keep them, and above all how to keep friends with himself When he loves flowers, can hunt birds without a gun, and feels the thrill of an old forgotten joy when he hears the laugh of a little child. When he can be happy and high-minded amid the meaner drudgeries of life. When star-crowned trees and the glint of sunlight on flowing waters, subdue him like the thought of one much loved and long dead. When no voice of distress reaches his ears in vain, and no hand seeks his aid without response. When he finds good in every faith that helps any man to lay hold of divine things and sees majestic meanings in life, whatever the name of that faith may be. When he can look into a wayside puddle and see something beyond mud, and into the face of the most forlorn fellow mortal and see something beyond sin. When he knows how to pray, how to love, how to hope. When he has kept faith with himself with his fellow man, and with his God; in his hand a sword for evil, in his heart a bit of a song — glad to live, but not afraid to die! Such a man has found the only real secret of Masonry, and the one which it is trying to give to all the world. There is a booklet by the same name produced by The Masonic Information Center, a division of the Masonic Service association. Its numerous illustrations have not been included as it would considerably delay file loading. To obtain illustrated copies @ $0.25 each (PPD); 40% discount in lots of 50 or more copies, plus shipping/handling, contact: Masonic Service Center 8120 Fenton Street Silver Spring, MD 20910-4785 Tel (301) 588-4010 ; Fax (301) 608-3457 Masonic Resources in New York •Brotherhood Fund •Camp Turk •DeMolay •DeWint House •Empire State Mason •Genealogy Requests •Livingston Library •Masonic Care Community •Masonic Medical Research Laboratory •MORI •MUNY(MOODLE) •New York Masonic Safety Identification Program (ChildID) •Surviving Spouses Committee •Youth Committee •ChildID Event Calendar •Atholl1781 Yahoo Group Mail List •Lodge Locator ..I Love You, All, xo! --------------------(-------@
  • TigerLilly
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    gonzo
    RAW was at DragonCon (fantasy game con) w/ Timothy Leary, in musta been 92. They were great, and was at a small group panel discussion with them. Same con where I bounced off Shatner's belly in 09 :D Back to discussing religion.
  • marye
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    dang...
    I just saw the part about Hunter being on tour... too bad. It was nice to believe it for a minute.
  • Anonymous (not verified)
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    Yes, would somebody stand up from the inner circle...
    ...say perhaps Blair Jackson, and give Ray-Ray a definitive assertion from the inner circle regarding these matters? My comments hardly represent 'the truth" in this matter.
  • Anonymous (not verified)
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    Hey Lilly
    I've heard Robert Anton Wilson speak and it's cool for me to say "The Grateful Dead pulled my cosmic trigger!
  • TigerLilly
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    gonzo
    also ran into your very long post in a forum -exact same text, while I was googling around, and yeah, whoever wrote it is a moron. starting with that while masons have pagan-based rituals involved, and also symbols, they are not satanists. And let's talk about satanism itself for a second. Originally Lucifer was a fallen angel, ach nevermind. Would have to get very long and deep to explain what is on my mind, and think am not up for it. but I will say put a bit of research into Satanism Ray Ray, cuz not all "satanists" are evil.
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In one of the other topics, one of the folks seemed not to be so sure of the reception he'd get for saying he was a youth minister at his church. In my experience, Deadheads span the full spectrum from Agnostic to Zoroastrian. I've met atheist Deadheads, Muslim Deadheads, Buddhist Deadheads, Catholic Deadheads, Jewish Deadheads, and Wiccan Deadheads. My Deadhead friends are all over the map on this stuff, and as far as I'm concerned one of the real richnesses of the scene is the ability to see how things look to other folks and, sometimes, experience it from their world. Believe it if you need it, if you don't, just pass it on. But talk about it here, and please maintain a safe respectful place to do so.
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Greetings, and let me clarify a few things. #1, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I also love the Grateful Dead's music. #2, I am not a "missionary" in the way I saw spoke of here. I am not looking to harm any indigenous peoples, as I believe was mentioned, and I'm not on any type of conquest to harm anyone! #3 I am not part of any official organization. I love Jesus. He loves me, and loved me first, and died for me, and I put my faith in Him to give me eternal life. That's what I believe. #4 As for the SYF. Mary, thanks for the way in which you discussed this. The cross of Christ is important to me and I put it in a SYF, actually I didn't, I copied it from someone else who did. The same way I love the Boston Red Sox baseball team and also got a shirt with a Red Sox SYF at a show one time. The same way others have SYF with a dove of peace, a marijuana leaf, their favorite sports team, etc. #5 I mean no one no harm. I have a website, greateststoryevertold.org, that shares the love of Jesus Christ in a way I hope is appealing to open minded Dead Heads and hippies, intertwined with the community that we're all a part of. Finally, I would like to apologize on behalf of any "Christians" you have met, or Christian experiences you have had that have seemed hypocrital, for any misrepresentations by the media or individuals or churches. I have met many who have had bad experiences and all I want people to know is that the real Jesus Christ has often been misrepresented by others, and probably even me, and I'm sorry for that. None of that changes that fact, that as the Grateful Dead sung so beautifully at the end of many shows, Jesus Loves You the Best. Be an honest seeker, check it our for yourself. Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me." He made that claim, I believe it, it's a claim worth investigating. You have nothing to lose and eternal life to gain. Check it out. May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Ben Jesus Loves You The Best! greateststoryevertold.org
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I do believe in Jesus, and am very torn about the fact that most Christians would expel me from a church if they new that I smoked weed and like to take a walk with Cid once in a while. I have trouble finding churches that go by scripture and still smoke weed. There is now where in the Bible that does not say you cant smoke weed... well I hope to find that church that smokes and believes. lol heck i may go Rastafari.. JJ but do have much love for them.. peace and love.
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when the great wizard discovered Cid,he invited a pretty handful of priests to try it....i dont think it did harm them in any way because i have a book where these guys express their experience and none of these comments is negative:-)(-:Peace AND Love ,Frankly
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Any church that would kick you out for smoking weed isn't a church to be in anyways. Those who judge and shun others are just decieving themselves. Keep the faith!
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At one time and for most of my life I was a christian and was active in a church. I went through periods where I would party and periods when I was straight. I loved Robert Schueller and the positive message his ministery preached. I began to study biblical history and archelogy. The discrepancies in the 4 gospels of the new testament began to bother me. I studied even more and as painful as it was at the time I decided to follow the truth ( or at least as I have studied and determined it to be) I still believe in God however not a Jesus the christ centered religion. It doesn't mean I don't believe Jesus never lived-(his name was Joshua though) he did.He said some things that were wonderful and said some things that weren't so wonderful. He was one of many messaniac figures in that region at the time of the Roman occupation. My dilemma is how am I supposed to live a belief system when I can't? I am not willing to throw away all of my possessions as Jesus asked his followers to. I think it is almost criminal to expect to live off the charity of others if I am able to provide for myself. I am not willing to forgive everyone who has wronged me. I may let go of the anger over an incident however if someone has committed a serious crime against myself or a loved one I want to see that person apprehended and punished according to the law. I look at what religions spend on the trappings of bureacracy and buildings and wonder if that is really Jesus or Moses or Muhammed really wanted. To me there are universal truths that belong to all human kind. All can be found in the writings of the different religions and other philosophies. I do know that sometimes when I am totally wrapped in a great GD Jam I feel really connected to humanity. Its odd I have never experienced that with any other type of music. And the road goes on forever.... BobbaLee
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Ever read the Gnostic Gospels, BobbaLee? Talking about discrepencies, Mother Mary, Mary Magdalene, etc. had a whole lot different story to tell than the guys did. Is really very interesting reading!!!!!!!!!********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens
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perhaps you all could tell me where and when and by whom these gnostic gospels were written. All I know is that before I became a friend of Jesus I had a lot of hate in my heart, now I have none.
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peakin - I thought that this topic was a place to exchange thoughts on spiritual matters and to be open ended and not shut other people down when they speak their mind and hearts. I feel that going "yawn" to other people's spiritual matters is arrogant and not very compassionate and is closed minded. Which is why I for one have had trouble with Christianity over the years. The refusal by many (not all) Christians to respect the beliefs of others. I am not saying that there are not many amazing Christians, what I am saying is there is often a lack of tolerance that I really don't feel is very loving. I will say that many of the most amazing activists I have met in the peace movement are Christians so obviously there are many that are moved by the love they find within the religion and in Christ. Well I guess this may stir up the pot a bit. Peace and love and oneness with others including other forms of life is where it is at for me. I think there are many different paths on the spiritual journey. . If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake
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Very well said!********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens
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well said and well spoken(typed)!!let you who are free of sin cast the first stone.... here take mine! one's personal belief in a higher authority is like a happy place in your mind, no one can force their happy place on you nor can anyone take that happy place from you! peace2all love4all, nobody
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And one of the hallmarks of an individual's struggle with their own convictions is manifested in lashing out against others. (Pharaisees toward Jesus and in modern times the Chinese towards the Dali Lama. If you percieve someone as your enemy, that is what they become for you. Even if your judgement of them is wrong.) To be able to tolerate and then move to appreciation other's beliefs is a goal to strive for. Conviction of oneself's absolute knowledge of infinite wisdom smacks of arrogance. And arrogance is so self limiting. None of us are in possesion of all the answers, and the trap of narcassism, the 'I have arrived' is a trap and stops growth. Does one maintain their rearch when they are convinced that they have arrived? Great philosophers, artists, musicisans push those boundaries and are not content to remain static. Did Garcia stop with bluegrass? Blues? Reggae? R & B? He saw the beauty and value of all the hues of the color wheel. Humility and appreciation for and of others that enrich our lives is a goal I strive for. And I continually fall short. Practice, practice, practice. So I continue on the path, recognize that we are all much more alike than different, but stop to smell the wonderful fragrance of each flower in the garden, admire the play of the contrast of the striking colors, watch as the wind, water, and sun affect the myriad of delights and do what I can to encourage the growth there. And with myself.
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Very well put intelligent post!!!!!!********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens
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What a nice way to start my Sunday morning. Words of wisdom from a friend. I think that is how we can often grow the most; through discussion and the thoughts of our peers, is often more meaningful than that of a learned spiritual authority. And thanks for your response Tigerlilly and grdaed73, I was kind of dreading coming and checking this topic, but instead am moved by your words of encouragement. What joy! OK, time to go out and work in the garden, which is actually more like play. Work and play at the same time. There is this amazing band there that sings to me every day, the songbirds . If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake
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I wish every person would live their belief system so that their minds and hearts were empty of hate. From a historical and myth busting standpoint I would like to correct a common misconception. The Pharisees did not persecute Christians. In fact they were in ancient times more like our present day ACLU. They actually defended Stephen ( the early Christian who was later stoned to death). Around 50 CE the followers of Saul (later Paul) turned the the religion from one about Jesus teachings to one about Jesus. This disturbed his original followers, the Nazareen's so much they left Jerusalem. Passages in the Christian new testament were added much later after the followers of Saul (Paul) had completed their domination of the Christian religion. The Saducees and Pharisees were not friendly towards each other. Saul was a Sadducee which were the enforcers of the temple priests, like a Temple of Jerusalem police force. He was a gentile convert. He was raised by a gentile father and mother in a city dominated by Greek philosophies. The infamous conversion scene during Saul's journey to Damascus was a metaphor and did not actually happen .The Saducees had little or no jurisdiction outside of Jerusalem. Damascas was a Gentile city where there were few Christians and a weak local rabbi. If you want to read more read "the Historical Jesus" and 'The Myth Maker" There are many Also read the book of Thomas it is the earliest known Christian book and is a collection of the sayings of Jesus. Like I said there is good and bad in the interpretations of all philosophies. And the road goes on forever.... BobbaLee
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dressed myself in greenI went down unto the sea. Try to see what's goin' down, try to read between the lines . I had a feelin' I was fallin', fallin', fallin', I turned around to see, 40,000 headmen hit the ground, Forty thousand headmen couldn't make me change my mind If I had to take the choice between the deafman and the blind I know just where my feet should go and that's enough for me I turned around and knocked them down and walked across the sea Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand Says "don't you see?" Gotta make it somehow just living in yesterdays tomorrow peace2all
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Excellent words Hal R. That kind of insight comes straight from the heart. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. May you enjoy peace in your garden.peace and love,pk
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for assisting me with that history. I need all the help I can get! As Mark Twain said "It ain't what I don't know that gets me into trouble. It's what I know for sure that ain't so." Take care all.
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Havent ever looked at this section before. I totally agree with with Hal R(a page back) about how Christians tend to have a lack of respect and tolerance for others. I am a self proclaimed "Liberal Chirstian" and have respect for all other religions, cultures, opinions, etc. I think that alot of times Christians forget about the way that Jesus would want us to act and spend most of their time judging and hating others and some how talk themselves into beliving that all that hatred is someday going to get them into heaven. I was a hardcore athiest for a few years of my life because of this. It was all I had seen of Christianity so I thought thats all there was to it. Jesus is about love, understanding, tolerance, and respect people!!! and if he was alive today he would totally be digging long hair, tye-die, and the Grateful Dead. Just what I belive anyway. Peace and Love to you all, Trevor "You know the one thing we need is a left handed monkey wrench....."
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I would really suggest that everyone listen to Willie Nelson's song "The Trouble Maker" As the quote from Willie says on the album cover - "The message in the song "The Trouble Maker" is even more important today than it was 2000 years ago" "You know the one thing we need is a left handed monkey wrench....."
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When I was a little girl, my Dad was a Baptist minister. But he gave it up when I was about 10, to become a psychiatric social worker. He said that he prefered to work WITH people rather than preachin' AT em from a high pulpit. Always thought that was ultra cool, and feel blessed that was allowed to have such an open-minded upbringing about religion. I remember my dad telling me that based on his studies in seminary, he believed that the Bible was a collection of stories to make a point. To teach us how to live peacefully amongst others. For example he told me that he thinks that is quite likely that Jesus was born in the spring, from all of the references to lambs and baby animals, and that early Christians celebrated Jesus' birth when they did, to coincide with a Roman Festival (solstice I think, but sadly don't remember exactly) to avoid persecution. My Dad was also sending young men to a pastor friend of his in Canada, who did not want to go fight in Viet Nam. This made for my first fistfight actually-a kid in school was calling my dad a "communist". Had no idea at the time what a communist was, just knew sounded like an insult to my Daddy. So I pounded the guy. Then when I got sent home, and Dad was talking to me about what had happened-he said that the next time that someone called him a communist, I could answer that Jesus lived a communal lifestyle, and so we considered that word no insult. We visited all sorts of other churches, and learned in Sunday school in my dad's church about other religious beliefs. End result of all of this openness, is that am relatively unconflicted about religion. Was allowed to say that I am not sure whether I believe in God, in the Christian sense of the word, but that I believed that God was a term to lable forces and a spirituality that don't understand, nor necessarily need to. Same feeling for western organized religions in general. I am eternally grateful to my Dad that I grew up learning tolerance, and being allowed and encouraged to discuss what I thought and felt. Think that is what religion is all about. Can admit am conflicted about God, and such complicated terms and structure that most religions bring, but have a deep belief in faith and spirituality. Has given me a freedom to find spirituality in nature, or when dancing at a show, or .... And while I personally find most religions to be too "confining" for lack of a better word-have a hefty respect and appreciation for how important faith is to many others. In a way I sometimes wish I had this deep belief, to help with the harshness that life can bring. Personal Faith is a powerful thing, and should never be criticized. Oy-was trying to keep a very long flow in my head brief here, and is first thing in the morning. Hope is at least a little bit understandable what am trying to say! :-) ********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens
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Thanks for sharing that with us tigerlilly it was a good thing to read right before bed. You were deffinitly lucky to have such a wonderfull dad. Peace and Love to you all, Trevor "You know the one thing we need is a left handed monkey wrench....."
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It takes courage to lay open our deep beliefs and share with others, we all grow together when we can openly talk about the great mysteries. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake
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a dear old friend of mine, who is now departed to the great beyond always said "Sunday night with the Grateful Dead is a religious experience" At least @ Winterland back in the '70's it seemed like it to all of us on the catering crew........as for me, I fought going to Sunday school with mom when I was a kid-just didn't want to go-it all seemed like brain washing & I must've wanted a free mind even as a child- I do think there's a force or a God of some sorts, but it sure seems like everyone should be able to decide for them selves & not have religion shoved down your throat-any religion-It all seems about $, control of the people & power---but that's my own thoughts on it.......Gypsy Cowgirlps-dad had religion shoved on him & he didn't want that for me-so that was cool
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Walkup Wear!!! Thank goodness for freedom of thought and expression!!!********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens
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Interesting thread indeed, but I can’t help but feel a little sorry for peakin here. The ‘yawn’ comment may have been a little intemperate, but really we’ve seen a lot worse here and I for one am curious as to why he used that word (was it ‘intolerance’ or something else perhaps?). It's also interesting how one slightly pointed remark has provoked such a rush of creative and fascinating posts. Maybe a bit of edginess can be a positive thing sometimes? Anyway, I think it would be a shame if peakin has now been driven away. I don't share his faith and often disagree with what he says, but imo he has been a fair minded correspondent here. Just because he is an open Christian does not mean he that has to be a paragon of virtue or that his actions should be judged as representative of his faith. If I have any 'faith' it is as an environmentalist and I sure get weary of being expected to act like a green saint the whole time! It's even harder now that I have discovered just how much fun snowmobiling can be. Oops
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Tiger Lily Great post as is everyones Peakins response was a response and maybe an attempt to understand more about his own beliefs. To me religion is man made and encompasses the structure and administration of philosophies. It always and always without fail, brokers a power sharing agreement with gov't officials and security forces. This is a symbiotic relationship-one cannot stay in power without the other. Spirituality is the essence of our souls relationship with the world, both physical and metaphysical. It is the bond we feel with one another, an animal a plant whatever.. Let me give you an example. Two summers ago I was hiking in the Grand Tetons with my son David. It was early June snow still on the ground (yeah! we are from Miami) and few people in the park. We were making our way around Jenny Lake and were walking in a deep forest area on the western side of the lake. My son and I are experienced hikers and back pack quite a lot. We also practice "walking meditations" where we try to be as silent as possible while keeping our minds free of any outside thoughts. Living the Now we call it. I felt we were being watched intently however not in a harmful way. I signaled David to pause and we began to slowly lower our selves to the ground. There ahead of us almost directly on the trail was a mother mule deer and a very very young new born. Probably born during the night. The mother stared at us -Her love of her baby and the desire to protect was a force I could actually feel. I as all parents know that emotion. I whispered a slow greeting to the Mama to let her know we meant no harm and slowly backed off about 100 feet. We moved around her while she kept an eye on us. It was a wonderful spiritual moment. I have felt the same feeling in cathedrals, concerts, natural settings, beds and even automobiles while driving. Human beings are connected to the universe through our souls. I hope they are eternal. And the road goes on forever.... BobbaLee
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This has been a very insightful thread. A thank you to all involved. peace,pk
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that's really lovely.
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A very beautiful story. Must have been an incredible moment. And how you told it, can imagine it very well. Also ABSOLUTELY pkpotter. This thread is flowing in a most fascinating way. People discussing their religious thoughts, questions, and beliefs in an open-minded and sharing manner. In a way is a religious experience in itself-we're making an example that a few others out there in the bigger world could heed. Respect for thoughts and freedom to speak-would all be better off if outside deadnet were as peaceful on this topic is going.********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens
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Thank you for the nice comments.There was an interesting post where the words "Practice ,practice practice" are used. How true. Let me expand a little bit. Not to delve into my private life a whole lot I am a typical "A" personality. Lots of to-do lists,wanting to be in charge, setting goals and constantly monitoring my progress or lack of progress. being as my wife said the General of my world. She as a psychologist has really opened my mind to the work of Jon Kabat -Zinn of UMass School of Medicine. His work on Mindfulness Meditation has been a big help. Mindfulness is a 2500 year old Buddhist meditative technique. It helps you strengthen your moment to moment non-judgmental awareness. The classic example is =When you are in the shower are you really in the shower? or are you obsessing about a problem or work or school? Let go and feel the water on your body. It requires a lot of practice. Practice Practice Practice I don't think it is a coincidence I discovered the Grateful Dead at the same time. The music is in the moment and it can be a wonderful communal event. I wonder if the guys knew that 30-20 years after they were playing something it would still be really effecting people? And the road goes on forever.... BobbaLee
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My "yawn" wasn't from intolerance. I love you all and don't think I'm better than anyone else. I just didn't see how gnostic gospels have anything to do with the ones I try, and sometimes fail, to live by. Anyway, I loved reading all your thoughts! Peace
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Glad that you were not offended, that is not what I was trying to do, your "yawn" just raised some questions that I have had over the years with Christianity and much of organized religion. Funny how one word can start a whole, very interesting discussion. And a reminder once again that with email or the web we do not see the facial expression and know exactly what the other person is saying. Peace to you too. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake
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Peakin. No stress, no controversy, but I believe that if one is trying to live by the gospels, then one should try to live by all of them-and not just the "accepted" or "non-censored" ones. If you believe in the Gospels-these should be no different. These women knew Jesus as well, and their versions are JUST as viable as those of the men, if you ask me.********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens
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if you'd asked me in 1972 I could have given you chapter and verse, but I've lost quite a few brain cells since then. But I too have always found it a little off-putting, standing outside the confines of my ancestral religion, that the Bible as we know it is the product of assorted gatherings, the first of which was long after the death of anyone who'd been there for the primary experience, deciding amongst themselves, this book's in, this one's out. Now there's some that believe that process was driven by divine guidance; to me it seems equally possible that it was driven by some human agenda of the time. For that matter I recall that it was somewhat controversial when St. Jerome translated the Bible into a language most people of the time could read. (Of course I also recall my old theology professor regaling the class with the Gospel of Thomas, I think it was, having the child Jesus striking the neighborhood bullies dead for teasing him, as an example for why some of those books fell out of the canon.) So I think the gnostic gospels are out because somebody didn't like 'em, fundamentally. That's humans for you. It's also pretty inevitable with religions; humans are involved. I well remember back in 1983 startling Gans (whom I had only recently met) considerably with a long screed on how the transition from Jesus to St. Paul to St. Augie was certainly not a pretty one and it was incumbent on all of us who were around for the primary GD experience to document the primary experience as comprehensively as possible so the revisionists who came after wouldn't be able to redefine it to suit themselves. Because there was never any doubt in my mind from the moment of Ripple on 12/31/80, my first show, that that was what we were dealing with, a primary religious experience. And I've said it before, there's a pretty good case to be made that the guys' greatest achievement was NOT turning it into a church. My hat is off to them every day for that.
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as i was just about to post this in reference to that incredible little yawn! and see a new post and read your reference to this song... chillsRipple in still water When there is no pebble tossed Nor wind to blow peace tc
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that I am not so drawn to gnosticism or dualism in general. But that's me.
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that I can pinpoint my conversion moment quite precisely to "if I knew the way, I would take you home" in that particular Ripple. I'd never heard the song. I'd never been to a Dead show. I was torn between being tickled that there were still hippies in 1980 and a little unnerved by some of the weirder aspects. And here was this whole hall of people intensely focused on this one guy singing, thousands of people clapping in time and singing along, and the guy's response to having all that power was "if I knew the way I would take you home." That was pretty much it for me.
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for this wonderful thread. I have been energized by this dialogue and awestruck at the wonderful stories and perspectives shared. I appreciate you all helping me slow down. It has been tough getting back in balance since those wonderful 10KLF shows and suddenly back in the workaday world, but "a little bit further, a little bit more, a little bit further than you gone before".... ..Take care.............
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The actions and words of all humankind are but a ripple on the water. They start from a single drop of energy and spread outward until the whole body is affected. It is how you react to that ripple, and how you send it back into the body of water that makes up the world we live in. Listening to the music and lyrics of the Grateful Dead for numerous decades, I still hear notes and words every day that expand that body of water and therefore make me strive to send back out those ripples with peace, love and above all thoughtfulness to all humankind.peace and love to all in this wonderful world, pk
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Regardless of what you guys think of "organized" Christianity, and I don't blame ya, I think that if "everyone" in the world lived the way "Jesus" taught us to live, there would be no war, no crime, no poverty, no hunger, no hate, no greed, and a healthy planet. That's why I believe. Gimme,gimme, gimme,gimme some love! Ain't no time to hate, barely time to wait.
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and leery as I am of human authority, I think churches (of whatever stripe) can be a great community for folks and do wonderful stuff. People's trips and the wish to impose them on people sure do get in the way though.
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I am with you there. For me however there are many sources to the truth and I find the teachings of and living example of Jesus to be one of the many shining stars to guide me on the road of life. Peace brother. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake
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"The actions and words of all humankind are but a ripple on the water." We all need to slow down and realize this. Thank you to all who have shared your thoughts and stories in this interesting thread. One common theme in these stories though is the open mindedness, tolerance and peace that have been instilled upon you through your religious beliefs. To me this sounds like these are the issues that are not taught through religion, but by your parents and your surroundings; the religion aspect only seems to grow from these teachings. This leads me to a the theory that religion is not at the core of our values, rather our environment is, which is another reason to protect it. Guess you could say that I am one of those people on the science side of the argument :) "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein ~littlebri
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Peakin' says... if "everyone" in the world lived the way "Jesus" taught us to live, there would be no war, no crime, no poverty, no hunger, no hate, no greed, and a healthy planet. I say...Amen to that! Marye says... I think churches (of whatever stripe) can be a great community for folks and do wonderful stuff. People's trips and the wish to impose them on people sure do get in the way though. I say...agreed, churches can be great, and if everyone shared the love of Jesus in the way He shared/shares His own love, and if we share it in the way in which He'd have us to share it today, then I don't think people would be making others feel like they were imposing and getting in the way. It seems like one of the things that people have a hard time with, or don't like, is Jesus' claim to be the only way. He says that He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life, and that there is no eternal life apart from Him. I believe in Jesus. I also pray that many would experience the love of Jesus, in the way He intended. Peace, and may you experience Jesus, the Prince of Peace, Ben Jesus Loves You The Best! greateststoryevertold.org (if you want a free CD(s) with Jesus-centered jam music, Jesus-centered reggae music, or Jesus-centered blues/rock music, email me and I'll send you free CD's. p.s. I'll be in San Francisco the next 3 weekends for Outside Lands Festival, Phil Lesh & Friends @ Slow Foods Festival, and Power to the Peaceful Festival. Hope to see you there!
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What Jesus was reported to have said and what he actually said is a topic of great interest to me perhaps because a lot of what constitutes "Western" civilization is based on these writings. The man we know as Jesus was born around 6 BCE. His name was Joshua not Jesus. an apostrophe was left on a translation from the original Aramaic to the Greek editions of the Gospels. He was a Nazarene and as most Hebrew males was given a decent enough education to read the Torah and geometry. Evidently he was an intelligent man because he was known as "techton" meaning a designer-builder ( not as a carpenter as most people believe). In other words he designed buildings and supervised their construction like a general contractor today. He spoke both Greek and Aramaic. Hellenistic influence was heavy in the area. some of this was evidenced in the writings of having eternal life etc. Jesus was born during a time of great turmoil for his people. The Romans had taken over his country and allowed the Herodite family to govern. The Herodites were more than happy to cut a deal with the Romans and taxed the people almost to the point of starvation. The Jewish tradition of forgiving debts every 7 years was disallowed. This forced large amounts of people off their farms and into slavery- many fled into the cities. The Temple in Jerusalem was rebuilt and the temple priests lived lavishly while the average people had a hard time surviving. The area we know as the Holy Land was a smoldering fire with countless uprisings. Messianic figures were common, the population had to endure both the tyranny of the Romans and their own Jewish kings. There were many many "prophets" urging the Jews to rise up. Into this world came Joshua. His message was different. He did not want the people to overthrow the Romans, he expected God to do that. He preached a return to the old Jewish traditions. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" was a plea to stop dealing with the Romans and the temple priests and return to their roots. The stories of his healing are probably accurate. He had a following of perhaps a few hundred people. Around 35 CE he decided to go to Jerusalem and confront the temple priests. His actions at the Temple in which he overturned the tables of the money changers was a direct challenge to the temple leaders. He wanted to be arrested.His night of prayer in the Garden was one where he pleaded for God to come and smite the Romans. It did not happen. He did not expect to be crucified. " My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?" was the cry of a man broken at last by the knowledge he had failed. In later years his original followers the Nazarenes broke away from the followers of Paul who had decided to make Joshua a diety. The belief was adapted by the Roman empire who then used it to their own ends. I used to be a Christian and find many people to be good examples of their faith. I do however think we should know what we believe in whether it is Jesus, Buddha or whatever. And the road goes on forever.... BobbaLee
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Quite the Biblical historian you are-should tell my dad to come to this thread and read some of this stuff. He would be soo delighted to read such an intelligent discussion on religion. " I do however think we should know what we believe in whether it is Jesus, Buddha or whatever" Agree with you 8,000%, and is think is a favorite nugged phrase of this fascinating thread!!!!!!1 ********************************** Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you will still exist, but you have ceased to live. Samuel Clemens