In today's Today in Deadhead History, aud mentions a show she never wants to revisit, even on tape, because the scene was so ugly. And I think the same is true of various shows for a lot of us. Thug security. Gate crashers. Drunken concertgoers puking on your bare feet. You know. Bad scenes. Post here.
I wish i would have thought of some of that like 30 years ago . good to know now for sure. you younger folks need to remember all this !!
thanks should go to mary, guys. she posted a similar link in the burning man thread first. peace.
spread it around early and often--I don't remember where I got it in the first place! And yeah, be careful out there...
what I really dug was the lock the door of the car before getting out thing. and the reply as to why: 'habbit.' I used to have padlocks on the leather saddle bags on the hog, when asked to open them by some cop skirting the rules of law, while stopped, I'd just smile and said, 'habeous corpus, officer, there is no key' one redneck cop asked me what that meant, I said, it means "shucks" peace.
The debate here on dead.net about Dead stickers on one's car and that in some states it is legal to be pulled over for simply having such stickers. Ok fine, I'm pulled over, but you are certainly not searching my car solely on the basis that I have a Dead sticker stuck to my window. Lets ask this question again - Are Dead stickers probable cause for a vehicle search in some states? Not a visible pipe or bag of dope but just a plain old steal your face sticker. And if so, please tell which states. Its just shocking to me to think that could be true even for places like Utah (no offense to Utah, beautiful state but the laws are a bit too facist for my taste). "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
no frigging way is a sticker BY ITSELF legal probable cause for any search in my opinion.same same a dude wearing a tie dye or a giant SYF shirt whatever. and I really do not think it is 'legal' for the cops to stop you on that basis alone on the road or on the street. 'gang' colours is a bit different, and also a bit shakey legally in my opinion, but in Cali or elsewhere, i know it been used for street stops and held up in court-- in high crime areas, it is not like the cops are going into the Fast Times at Ridgemont Mall and stopping and frisking suburban teens who just are dressing up like their favourite gangsta. back on stickers: I DO remember hearing about some NCIC guidelines that cops use them to that end, (stopping a car) though I never seen it in print. it would be shakey legal grounds, if that was the 'sole' basis for the stop. thing is, especially on the highways, most of the time, tthey are stopping you for something real, like speeding or a broken tail-light, weaving in traffic, carelss driving, whatever. when I used to live on the east coast, I-95 was/is a major route from Florida up to NYC for the smugglerrs. back about 15-20 years back, I rmember reading about some NJ state troops who got in trouble for stopping car loads of hispanic/black people. This was some 'guideline' they had in their general policies. as i remember, they (both the road cops and the policy makers) were 'reprimanded' but not fired. racial profiling and now deadhead profiling?? sheesh! all that said, and unfortunately the stuff in the video wont work with a cop who is 'rogue'. all they have to do is lie in court and say they saw some plastic bag or smelt something -- which of course, I could tell you dozens of stories of firsthand accounts like that I've heard over the years. who will the judge believe in court? unfortunately this shit goes on all the time. my old lady and I was talking about this the other day after we watched that ACLU vid, and she was saying, 'how about I ask the cop to record, either video or audio, the full conversation? or record it secretly?' I said that may all be well and good, but it won't stop some bad fuzz from later testifying in court that they glanced through the window and saw some plastic bag with something on the floor of the car... whether they found it under the seat or in your pocket don't matter. even heard plenty of stories about fuzz who illegally opened trunks and later said the bag of whatever was sitting on the back seat in plain view while tehy was testifying in court. all that said, i do think the vast majority of cops are honest. and unless you become an 'attitude' problem, they wont break the law themselves for a petty arrest. if you are fool enough too have distribution weight on you or in your car, God help you. I think the thing to take away from the video is to be careful not to be 'tricked' into giving consent for any personal or vehicle search and to stand your ground about that, and to never let the cops into your house under any circumstances. if they come to your door for any reason (without a warrent) keep the window closed and shout through it while holdding your hands in the air, or tell them to call you on the phone. NEVER admit you did anything wrong, and shut your mouth and say nothing if they ask you questions which will incriminate you. finally, PLEASE keep your private things in the trunk, and don't be stupid while on the road. wait until you get where you are going to spark up or whatever. remember how Garcia got busted in GGP because the cop smelled something 'burning'? man, Garcia must have been at a real low if he couldn7t wait until he got home to fix. sad. even people who only drink, shit, wait until you get there before opening the beer. even if you really do not have anything to hide, and your pad and blood and urine and hair is totally clean, this is not about what you do, this is about personal freedom and laws against unreasonable stops/searches. I've refused to empty my pockets after being patted down, because they have no right to do that if I am not under arrest. (laws are state by state, that one) they can pat you down looking for a weapon, ok, fair enough, but no way am I showing them that I have intestine problems and need to eat Tums like they are gum drops. most real perps (read traffickers and real criminals) are DUMB. and most do aggree to the searches wether they realize it or not, and hence, the searches are legal. keep in mind, the 2 places you do not have any civil liberties at all; any domestic airport security and any international border. once in the control area, you can not walk away and say, ok I am leaving now... I think i mentioned earlier somewhere, it is legal for venue private security to search you as a pre-condition of entry to private property, but you can walk away from that before they search you. once inside, you can refuse to be searched by private security, but that will mean you have to leave the show immediately. don't be a mook, don't get busted by being 'fooled' or intimidated into an illegal search of your car, person, or home. peace.
forgot to include, (and repearting from the ACLU vid) please be polite to the cops, do not raise your voice, do not get angry no matter what happens and NEVER, ever touch them. even if they unreasonably grab your arm or something like that, or push you, NEVER ever push back. you will be jammed up and convicted. even a mild, finger poke to an officer's chest will land you in the pokey. if they grab you, go limp. please do not react physically. playground rules of 'hey, he pushed me first' do not apply to federal offenses of 'assault on a peace officer' peace.
I appreciate your viewpoints. BTW on the ACLU video, I do admit that the cop was pretty funny .. when he gets in the car and says "It smells like Bob Marley's ass in here" I had to chuckle for some reason that made me laugh.. but all in all, that whole car scene with the cop makes my skin crawl... "I've stayed in every blue-light cheap hotel. Can't win for tryin. Dust off those rusty strings just one more time. Gonna make em shine."
no problem, jack. I can't say 'it's a pleasure' because this whole issue irks me to no end... but, I am happy to help and if one head is saved the misery of going inside by reading this or seeing the vid, I'll be glad. if anyone knows of any 'published, in the manual,' police procedure guidine that includes stopping a car for ONLY having a dead sticker on it, please let me know. I was thinking about it while I was taking a walk just now, and what I remember hearing was the NCIC thing was something about teaching cops what the dead SYF and so on looked like, and that 'possibly' the passengers / driver of such a car would have controlled substances. so to be on the lookout for other 'signs' of illegals... similar to telling east LA rookie cops to be aware that folks with a red or blue 'do' rag might be a gang member and might have weapons... by the by, ALL police training in every academy includes learning the smell of smoke from grass. remember, it is not illegal to smell like grass, it is illegal to posses it. so do not get intimidated into giving consent to any search just because you or you home reeks. naturally, your car reeking like Bob Marley's ass (yeah that was pretty funny -- people at the ACLU do have a sense of humour) IS probable cause for a search. Ira, the ex-head of the ACLU, although he has gray hair and black eyebrows and seems a bit stiff in the vid is a rightous dude. I also smiled at the 'this isn't Amsterdam' line... one other thing that Ira mentioned, a highway stop is not the place to debate the morality or usefulness of certain laws. never admit anything, never say anything USE your 5th ammendment rights. I do not mean, do not tell the cop your name or something like that, but never admit you did anything wrong -- never even admit you were speeding, just stay quiet. the other thing that also really perturbs me, is that the sniffer dogs can be verbally commanded to make 'false positive' signs. the pups are usually taught to scratch at something or sit down in front of something they 'recognize' but a handler can trigger the same response with a verbal command if they really want to. the highway cops often 'threaten' to call in the dogs, and dogs get more 'false positives' without any shenanigans more than anyone will ever admit. but if a rogue handler decides you have something, all they need do is trigger a false positive verbally, and then they have the right to tear your car apart. if a cop is so bored that s/he just decides to fuck with the hippies, they will never; in my opinion, admit in court that the real reason they stopped the vehicle was because it was a giant tie-dye school bus with 200 SYF stickers on it, loaded with long hairs -- s/he will just testify it was 'weaving' in and out of traffic... personally, the only stickers I ever had on the car or bike or shirts that I wear are images that only a true deadhead would recognize. it is a sad state of affairs in the good o'l US of A. peace.
Florida and South Carolina. Of course, it's the south. In Florida, especially in Orange county, they will stop you for a sticker, or a shirt, it has happened and will continue to happen as long as people allow it to happen. But, what can you do when they stop you and are ready for anything you do or say? A friend was stopped at a road block in fla, had on a dead shirt, nothing else, no stickers, not an old hippy looking car, just driving along on memorial day holiday going to the beach. Said no to any search, they were ready, had a judge in a trailer, dogs on leashes waiting, everything. If he did not agree to the search, they would go into trailer, get a warrant, and search. The whole time the cops were telling my friend that if he did not submit to the search, they were going to make it bad for him, offered to "give him a break" if he came clean, all because he had on a dead shirt . He was clean, but it was still a 2 hr search, in the sun, along the highway, after it was all over, they said "have a nice day".In SC, same scernerio, stopped on highway, no other reason except had a normal sticker on his car. Serched there also. It goes to show, if they want to search you, they will and there ain't nothing you can do about it. Just keep your stash small enough for you to eat, they can't bust you for smiling (Wait, yes they can) Here it is in a nutshell, if they want you, you are toast. All, most all cops will lie, whatever they have to do, to keep there stories straight and make them look good and the "perpatrator" bad. There may not be an official policy involving dead heads and stickers, but from experiences and friends experiences, they do pull you over if you look "dead". Best to keep it stealth. and remember, this has been happening for decades, Bobby said it years ago, "the heat came by and busted me for smiling on a cloudy day"
in Florida, what was written on the search warrent as the predicate? please ask your friend if he knows or remembers. also in SC, they had a judge there? if so, same question. *** I can also imagine cops doing it like a DWI random stop, that they 'say' they are only stopping every 4th car randomly... justifying the search on paper in that way, especially if you happen to be driving on a smuggler's alley. not only are laws state by state, they are also county by county, too. you are totally right, sam, if they want you, you are toast.
I really started noticing things (people) at the 2nd vegas show ,drunks,speed freaks,the heroin people were low key,but thats a whole differenty topic. lots of people seemenly looking for trouble. it was so bad that i really didnt want to 2 be associated w the crowd. People would ask me on the strip how were the shows? i would tell em good, but parking lot scene ,outta hand. I after the ist year the 2nd year i wud go fri and sun show , skip the sat. show to get away frm the whole crazy scene. in the early 80's the parking lot scene was alot mellower, better doses? wen GD played w d matthews band the fri. morning scene was doomed, several drunks of all types and ages seemenly bent on getting as stupid as possible. speed freaks hassling u for a beer ,a hit of ur baloon,whatever. on sun afternoon my buddies on my friends van went in early to c d.matthews. i stayed in tthe van smoking kine bud. i also had in my possesion a sheet , sum shrooms, and about a1/4 of kine buds, relaxing in the van, a group of spped freaks hyped up on said drug and booze, asked me whose van this was. apparently this van had flipped them off in town and they were bent on causing harm on whoever flipped em off, the driver of van ,my bud was so mellow and even in rage, which i had never seen, wudnever flip off people no matter how rude or obnoxious people wrere. i got so scared with these people threating to kill me , i thought quickly ,grabbed my backpack and ran! w van open, they gave chase, i was so freaked out , trying to comprehend wat was going on, a GD show ? fights,kill threats, where am i south central LA?i desperately ran all over lot , just peaking on first wave of doses, unable to talk w anybody, i calmed myself , and figured the best,safest, place wud b in show. security was my next concern , a sheet, 4 tall cans ,of beer, bud,shrooms, ah yeah, go on in sir, and enjoy the show, in my backpack. oh yeah, security , will jus say no big deal, well guess wat , ? a cool security guy, asked me to check my bag, i mumbled sumthing to him about sum crazy guys in lot trying to kill me, he saw the true face of human fright, and said go head bro and b careful, unbelievable, whoever u are mr. security thank you for ur genuine concern for my well being. no more vegas show after that, and only venues that were mellower,Autzen ,comes to mind, anybody dare to compare the Autzen lot scene w Vegas? worlds and miles apart for good reason. stay true to your roots! Tsee-wen-Pii" santa clara pueblo indian reservation,N.M. anybody jus wanna talk story? email me email@example.com
In both states it was a supposed DWI check, but in FL they were stopping every car, if not searching, they were stopping and looking into the vehicles or, for the unlucky, snifing the air. They did get a few stoners that day, mostly just a couple of joints or roaches, seemed to be a big deal for nothing, except to ruin Memorial day for everyone comming back from the beach. In SC, judge in a single wide trailer along the side of the road, if, for any reason, you refused the search, the orificers took you over to the trailer and got the judge to issue search warrant for "probable cause". Or, if the dog they had signaled the cops, that was probable cause too. The law in SC had it all set up with local stores in the area, had lots of cash on hand so if you did get caught, they would try and convict right there, give you a ticket and collect the cash from the ATM, all before they let you go. If no cash, jail. Then, you would get a court date that you did not have to attend, but if you didn't, they would suspend your DL and it would cost you another 100 bucks to get that back too. All that and a criminal record. Now, if you lived in FL, like my friend was at the time, that would mean driving all the way back to SC to attend court date, and still proubly getting license suspended and having to pay fee. This was back in the 90's, so it can only be worse now, with the way things are, they will do anything to get cash. If you love to drive and take a toke every now and then, don't do it with dead stickers on your car.
And people keep asking me why I don't wanna move back to the Glorious U.S. of A. Case in point about why I am in NO hurry is in these stories. Pffffffffffffffffft!********************************** Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge. Mark Twain
Had to leave USA because as a foreigner my legal and human rights were stomped on by creepos hiding as bullshit judges ,corrupt lawyers ,rotten cops ,these basterds doing me in only because they knew they could get away with their rip offs abuses . Even death treats ,robbery of my legal french passport ,yes US pigs do that and the french consulate pretented it couldn't be so ! Asskissing french consuls too scared for their comfortable carriers to stand up for french citizens 's rights ! phonies always screaming about WW2 crimes but NEVER say a word about cops /courts persecuting whites these last 50 years ! Over nothing ,nada ,being vicious like nazis simply because the political warped system allow them ,protect and finance them ! For these reasons I will not ever go back to USA !
Is turning into a really bad scene. We need to pass the cool kool-aid and fly TLA to the GG Park, eat organic and run around naked for a while dancing to GD and other kimd bands. If you still care about your modesty when you're in your 60s maybe you never got your GI Joes and Barbie Dolls..to o play with. Whenre a diver's suit if it'd cold. Do a polar plunge for the Rex Endless Summer of 67 in he winter of 11. The Muic Never Stopped!
Their last concert at JFK before they tore it down. The security guards were asswholes.They had guard dogs like in dogs of war, and billy clubs. They kept yelling at the audience and telling them to sit the **** down or they would be sorry. They did hit a few people really hard. We left after Comptably Numb. We were going over the Bridge to New Jersey when we heard the police calling for reniforcements. They had a full riot. It was not terrible but she had me worried. At a gratefull dead concert, for get the date, it was a outside concert, a girl near us went into labor and refused to leave untill the concert was over. I remember her screaming every time she had a contraction.
On August 31st, 2009 TigerLilly said:"And people keep asking me why I don't wanna move back to the Glorious U.S. of A. Case in point about why I am in NO hurry is in these stories. Pffffffffffffffffft!" Hmmmmmm, well I guess this must be better than what those fine folks were doing during the 1940's...
Trouble Ahead, Trouble Behind Current events thread, in the middle of a long rant on a bad day. Two were killed instead of 4. The Gerans have their head up their ass on this -- it was a a terrorist incident!
of an individual nutcase. And what the heck was that 1940's comment supposed to mean ratsnkats ********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde
On March 4th, 2011 TigerLilly said: "And what the heck was that 1940's comment supposed to mean ratsnkats" How about I send ya a PM and spell it out for ya? You said in an earlier post: "I don't wanna move back to the Glorious U.S. of A." Yeah, you're right, the U. S. of A. is a Glorious nation, regardless of your lame attempt at sarcasm. I say good for you, don't move back, we'll get by without you here, believe me. I'm a Deadhead, AND I love my country; why you keep spewing about American politics on this site is beyond me. Pffffffffffffffffft! this.
enough with the abusive verbiage. Thank you. People can comment about politics to their hearts' content, American or otherwise, in the appropriate topic, particularly the current events topic (this topic has more to do with bad concert scenes). TL's comments have not risen to the level of "spewing" and for you to assert that they do is bordering on personal attack. Cut it out. Thank you. Please move the discussion of politics to the current events topic. ME the mod
Hey Stardancer!I was at that show [Pink Floyd, JFK Philadelphia 1987] I remember standing outside the gates waiting to get in. They were at least a half an hour late opening the gates, and the crowd was starting to grow in numbers, and in anger. I was close to the front and was starting to get crushed. people behind us started throwing full beer cans toward the gates, but were hitting fans in the heads. When the gates finally did open, there was such a RUSH to get in, that I was literally swept off my feet. I went through the turnstiles (along with probably a couple hundred other people) with my feet NOT touching the ground! I never gave anyone my ticket, I was never searched ... it was leterally like riding a wave of people. I was never so scared in my life! The whole time, I just kept thinking of the Who in Cincinatti. I remeber seeing people in front of me landing on their feet, and running out of the way, so that's what we all did. We hit the ground running. Very F'd up!! And after all that, it Poured during the encore! However, me and my buddies had extra tickets ... ;o) So everything in between the stampede and the rain was very cool! Peace, Chris
pretty scary, glad you made it out OK as the first thing I was thinking was the Who in Cincinnati also!
...that the last time they played there, 87 I believe, so many people died the town decided to deny further permitting at the Ventura County Fairgrounds for the Grateful Dead. Does anybody have any memory of what exactly happened? How many people died? Why? It's just morbid curiosity and to see if there is truth there.
Wow. Just saw this thread thanks to the new post about Ventura. I read a few posts, and wasn't surprised to see the Who's Cincinnati concert mentioned. Sadly, I was there - had just turned 20, last day before finals, my last adventure for moving to D.C. for a semester, and absolutely pumped to see the Who. Those were the days of when bands regularly sold out large arenas (Who, Floyd, Stones, Zeppelin and even acts like the Doobies and Steve Miller, etc etc), so getting there early was just how it was done - - nearly every venue close to my hometown - Lexington, KY - did festival seating. THe Who show was no different except the "wait" was something out of a horror movie. No room, hard to breathe, cold, people shedding those big puffy down jackets and getting them tangled in your legs. I remember me and my buddy getting squeezed out of the mass of people, literally gasping for breath, and then telling two of Cincy's finest how awful it was. I have hard time blaming them as it was just not that unusual - sure Cincy was bad, always was, because of its make up, and though that night was particularly rough, it just seemed typical. Anyway, finally got in - a great show. Townshend himself said it was one of the best shows they'd ever played in the news interviews. We were driving back home listening to WEBN (the local cool FM station) and the DJ saying "If you were at the show, pull over, call home and let your parents and friends know you are safe. Eleven people were killed at the show." Remember, this was back before mobile phones - every exit we got off had long lines to use pay phones, so we just decided to drive back and call from the dorm. I got back to my dorm (finals still going on) and there were notes taped on their from my girlfriend, parents, grandparents, and uncle in Oregon, all saying to call. I had no clue, but my parents had called tons of folks to ask them to pray for me and my friends. They had found out when Walter Cronkite and CBS News broke into regular programming to announce the tragedy. So, my parents had to wait 3 or 4 hours to learn I was safe. I remember within a week or so, the ROlling Stone came out with the Who Tragedy as the cover with the faces of all the kids who had died due to the incompetence of the arena management. I remember being just dazed that I had been there, that maybe I had stepped on one of them (who knows), but that I had been fortunate enough to survive. I attended hundreds of shows after that - - but NEVER did I go with a festival seating ticket again (except lawns at sheds). WOrst Dead show experience was Raleigh at Carter Finley, 7.10.90. Lots of drunks, bad weather, Band played lousy, and tough cops. But, no one died. I've got friends who were at Deer Creek in 7.2.95 (onmly 3 hours from Lex.) - hardly a surprise given how Dead shows had devolved into lunacy since 91. Wasn't the "In the Darkers", but a dark element that really hit those tours hard. Reason why my last show was an indoors - Charlotte, 6.18.92. Now, seeing THE DEAD (and prior post-Jerry incarnations), reminds me of seeing them in the 70s and 80s . . . some venues still a huge deal (mostly on coasts), but could still see them in a reasonable place without insame crowds. Just my two cents and memories. DCHOF aka The Wharf Rat Cyclone
ahhh....Ventura and the dead. kinda like milk and cookies only better. I do remember hearing lot stories about sum man comitting suicide. I believe he had mental problems and im sure mixed with a variety of chemicals floating around the shows could have contributed to it.. I think that was the sat. afternoon show in 85.Other than that didnt hear about people dying. i do know the closet liquor store to fairgrounds had a 3 block long line waiting to just get in the store.On top of that they didnt have any cold beer or ice.. this Liquor loved the dead as the owner was a able to pay a years worth of rent from those 2 days. made even more wen in 87 they played three shows. 86 getting there on fri. morning and hundreds of heads walking around bummed cuz jerry was in a coma..shows were cancelled that year. i do know their was some incredibly clean doses to be had every time they played there.
There were many many bad scenes at shows.I think we became a target when we became so popular in the late 80's 87 threw the end. For me, am forever Grateful I got off tour in 89. We lost many friends to over dose and car accidents. Also many went to prison.I knew that I was on borrowed time.One day to the next was always the way we lived. Looking back I am glad I dependant on a substance that got me sober. If not my family would of buried me long ago.All that said when I first got on tour in I would say summer of 82.I was told by old time hippies that the best way to present yourself is to never stand out. DO NOT be the first one in town when on the road DO NOT dress like many others do.Why because we stood out. Kind of hard to hide in plain sight.With hair to my middle of my back and never having enough money for things like clothing or a place to live it got harder and harder to stay out of plain sight. I will NEVER EVER forget my one dear friend who happened to big time player in our world pulled me aside one time on the Haight and gave me a talking to. I was told the way I was living was going to draw to much attention to myself and those around me so " I better cut the shit". This person was more then kind to me over the years. So much so that once I did get sober and back to my home state she would call my family to see how I was doing from time to time.That's love people real unconditional love. They say in AA we must change our friends... they are correct but we had something very similar to the fellowship of AA. WE CARED ABOUT EACH OTHER with love and kindness. There many a shows where someone would get arrested for doing what had to do to survive.When this would happen the hat would be passed to raise the bail money. No one cared whether they would get that cash back it was for the love of one another that we would raise the needed cash. To mention a few times Poplar creeke 83,never knew the person but kicked down as much I could afford. Chicago in spring of 87. Irvine in 86 . Even once I was sober in mid 90's i got a call to kick in for a family friend. I would like to say I am forever grateful to all how cared for my well being and the check ins and follow up threw the early 90's We REALLY really Loved each other.