In one of the other topics, one of the folks seemed not to be so sure of the reception he'd get for saying he was a youth minister at his church. In my experience, Deadheads span the full spectrum from Agnostic to Zoroastrian. I've met atheist Deadheads, Muslim Deadheads, Buddhist Deadheads, Catholic Deadheads, Jewish Deadheads, and Wiccan Deadheads. My Deadhead friends are all over the map on this stuff, and as far as I'm concerned one of the real richnesses of the scene is the ability to see how things look to other folks and, sometimes, experience it from their world. Believe it if you need it, if you don't, just pass it on. But talk about it here, and please maintain a safe respectful place to do so.
i hope we all can agree
that there is no higher study than the search for truth. even the bible says the truth will set you free. humans are given the ability to reason, and i think that deep down we all know the difference between right and wrong. be it religious truth, or scientific truth....the truth is the truth, and thinking of all this has made my head hurt really, really bad.
the truth is an illusion, it is all in ones preception of life , and life is what you make of it wheather it be true or not is something that can only be revealed in ones own mind. peace & sunshine , i hope you all have a beutiful day ..
so imagine you were a really intelligent higher entity and you got the chance to design from scratch a being to dominate a fragile planet and rule all the other creatures that you have so carefully designed. Would you really then design something like human beings with their propensity for selfish, narrow minded, destructive, violent and generally dumb behaviour? Not to mention our physiology. Knees, backs and teeth that wear out before their time. Dangerous, painful childbirth for women. And who would build the entertainment centre on top of the waste disposal unit? If there is an intelligent designer he/she/it must have a very warped sense of humour ;-)
WildStrings &/or Ben Stein's point
" If scientists wish to explore the idea of intelligent design they should be allowed to do so without the fear of having their careers ruined in an un-American way." Is very well taken. Just have to differ with the "in an un-American way" part. Am remembering when teaching evolution got people in trouble. This kinda leads to me wondering whether "the American way" is whatever is hip at the moment, and heaven forbid if you believe something else. ********************************** It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine
A little off topic...
Last year when I was at Nelsons Ledges, a life guard showed me in a water bottle a small (no bigger then a tip of a ball point pen) jelly fish????? The ledges is a corey. How did a fresh water jelly fish get in the corey??? Could this be the process of evolutin??? I do believe in God, or a higher power, but how can anyone explain this???Peace- Moye
Quaries typically fill with water when the digging strikes the underground water table. Water flows in from rivers, streams, lakes etc. Very small organisms are easily transported through underground water sources. If this were not so, we wouldn't have to worry about polluting our underground water sources from surface dumping.
humans are all that, violent, self-destructive, selfish, etc...
but along with the ability to reason, is the ability to choose.....and we obviously ain't always right.
on top of the waste disposal unit
wow!!........and WHAT a sense of humor!!! hips......you forgot hips......they wear out.....(owwwwww.......)
I love you guys
InspirationMoves me brightly Light the song with sense and colour Hold away despair More than this I will not ask Faced with mysteries dark and vast Statements just seem vain at last Some rise Some fall Some climb To get to Terrapin !
that last one...
courtesy of Robert Hunter !
Science and Religion
It seems to me that the proper goal of both science and religion should be truth, as others in this forum have suggested. I see religion and science as ultimately seeking the same thing, but coming from different perspectives. For a scientist, the answer "God did it" is insufficient because the aim of science is to find out what processes are involved. How did it happen? Or, for the religious scientist (and there are actually many), how did God do it? As a person of faith, science can produce no evidence that could make me not believe that God exists. However, scientific fact has indeed challenged my particular preconceptions about God and therefore has expanded my understanding of God (as has being exposed to the Grateful Dead experience). At this point in time I believe that God is the ultimate creator of the universe. The Big Bang theory says that a ball of hydrogen exploded to start the universe. The hydrogen had to come from somewhere. Science will seek to explain this, as it should. The answer will only expand my understanding of truth, which, according to Gandhi, is God. When the Grateful Dead started a concert, they had some basic ideas of what was going to happen, but could not predict what the final result would be. I'm open to the possibility that God may create in the same way. Those of you with different ideas, please continue the discussion. If we all continue the discussion with an open mind and respect for each other we can only increase our understanding of truth.
Thanks for the kind and encouraging words. Your posts along with all the others in this forum have certainly helped me on my journey. Hopefully we will all continue to support and challenge each other along the way. "If I knew the way I would take you home".Peace
for the sake of discusion
i hear alot of christians say to love thy neighbor as thy self....but what if you suffer from depression and are suicidal does that mean you should kill your neighbor also.?..this question has been in my head for a loooong time.
Loving your neighbor as yourself
The quote you refer to is part of what is known by some as the summary of the law. The full quote from Jesus is "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. The second is like unto it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets". Many, including myself, feel that this is the essence of the teachings of Jesus. We often forget that Jesus was an observant Jew who was most likely trying to reform Judaism, not start a new religion. He appeared to be combating the legalism that was prevelant in much of Judaism at the time. The commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" would seem to imply that first you must love yourself. I have struggled with depression at times in my own life. My father, who was an ordained minister, committed suicide. I can tell you that when you are severly depressed you do not love yourself. Unless you get the proper help to deal with your depression you will have no energy to love others. It seems clear to me that this commandment is not telling us to treat others as ourselves when we do not love ourselves. Sadly many churches do not convey the idea that we should love ourselves when they spend all their time telling us what horrible sinners we are. This is a legitimate criticism of the church by many. I believe that Jesus would be just as critical of this brand of Christianity as he was of the Pharisees of his own time. Jesus clearly took time to nurture himself, often withdrawing from the disciples to recharge mentally, spiritually and physically. He seemed to feel that he had to love himself in order to be of service to others. My experience of the Grateful Dead was instrumental in helping me to learn how to love myself. Check out the lyrics to "Eyes of the World". Peace to all and happy Mothers Day to all you moms. You are so important in helping your children realize that they are "the eyes of the world".
while i agree with what you say about loving yourself, i have always had a problem doing that. i always end up feeling selfish and self centered. i do know i feel happiest when I've made someone else happy, but do i do it to make someone else happy or to please myself? i also tend to have a problem spreading the words of Christ cuz it turns so many people off...and i don't wish to offend anyone.....gotta keep trying tho...as i have said here before...it's how the word is spread that torques most people. i pray long and often (sometimes people hear me and seeing my longhair, tattoos and beard makes them go .."whoa")
"At root, there is simply no way of separating self from other, self-love from other-love. All knowledge of self is knowledge of other, and all knowledge of other knowledge of self. I begin to see that self and other, the familiar and the strange, the internal and the external, the predictable and the unpredictable imply each other. One is seek and the other is hide, and the more I become aware of their implying each other, the more I feel them to be one with each other. I become curiously affectionate and intimate with all that seemed alien. In the features of everything foreign, threatening, terrifying, incomprehensible, and remote I begin to recognize myself. Yet this is a "myself" which I seem to be remembering from long, long ago—not at all my empirical ego of yesterday, not my specious personality" Alan Watts The Joyous Cosmology: adventures int he chemistry of consciousness Read the whole thing on www.erowid.org/library/books_online/joyous_cosmology.pdf
now my head REALLY hurts....
suicide question-found this article rather interesting
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/********************************** It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine
Self love is not self centeredness
Brother Johnman, I relate to your post. I struggle with the same issues. I think the self love that Jesus implies in his words is the exact opposite of self centeredness. When I love myself the most is when I feel most connected with the other, so that the two are one as referenced in Cosmicbadger's post. As far as feeling good when we do something for others I think that it may often simply be a reinforcement that that is what we should be doing. As Joseph Campbell said "follow your bliss". There is a danger that we may become overly proud of all the "wonderful" things we do for others, but we just need to know ourselves well enough not to let this take control of us. I've obviously never met you in person, but from reading your posts you seem to me to be a genuinely loving person who is not operating on false pride. In my own experience I've often asked the question if taking care of myself is being self centered. I've not found an easy answer to that one. I feel we have a responsibilty to not give in to selffishness, but as I said in my earlier post I think we need to nurture ourselves so that we can be of service to others, as Jesus did. The church may tend to encourage a martyr complex in many of us. I don't think Jesus intended for most of us to be martyrs! I just try to prayerfully sort out the negative messages I've been given regarding my own worthlessness from the inner voice that is urging me on to be of service to others. I gather from your previous post that you are already practicing this form of self examination. Regarding spreading the good news, I have come to the conclusion that if we endeavor to follow the example of Jesus' life we will have more than enough to keep us busy and being truly committed to this may be the best way to tell others. Jesus did most of his preaching to those in power who were abusing their office. He seemed to communicate with everyone else simply by listening to and loving them. Blessings to you my friend.
Preaching about Christ
To answer Johnman from a few days ago. Yes its hard to spread the word of Jesus cause people don't want to usually hear it There is a great quote which I believe is Franciscan and it states " to preach the gospel and sometimes use words" Sometimes actions speak louder than words in this case My best example for this is to follow the 7 Corporal Works of Mercy Going back to the commandments that were previously posted here Love yourself as you would your neighbor Yes there are a lot of people out there that do not "love themself" but all relationships between people are really based on this. The reason why some peole waiver in this notion is becuse they are lacking faith Faith in something whether it be a God or a belief or a set of values As a former youth minister I gave a talk to my 9th and 10th grade students on the topic of realtionships and I told them they first have to have one with themselves,. Any other relationship would not be valid without believing in that. I explained to them that their destiny has already been predetermined by God and the "bad choices" they make lead them way from that plan thus changing their realtionship with themselves Just my 2 cents Keep on writing or posting I'll be back The CAT
The other night, i was listening to Terrapin Station... and i found a new perspective to it.... its really amazing finding new meaning to songs that are over 30 years old...!!! I had imagined the song was set in a Christian-based theme.. And the Lady of course would be GOD, and the Sailor would be the Believer, and the Soldier would be the non-believer... and the lyric says "I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance" Pretty powerful stuff...makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck!
Live, Love by example
I like Johnman's example of how to "spread the word", living by example. My problem with someone attempting to enlightening me with the "Word of Jesus" is that organized religions have had almost two thousand years to tweak the "Word". For me, this does not take from the truths being offered, but leads me to question why it is so important to believe that Jesus literally spoke these exact words. Please enlighten me as to how we can have so many different Christian sects, all proclaiming that theirs is the true path. Explain why "the Word of God" has been edited by mere mortals so often. For me, it boils down to one very important principal, Love. The Church controlled science itself for hundreds of years, and science has succeded in blinding us to many truths that were evident to archaic religions, many of which used entheogens as their sacrament. Science has all but taken enchantment from our lives, but asks us to accept just one unexplainable miracle on faith, the big bang. From there it attempts to explain everything. Entheogens can open up the mind to other realities, the existence of Gaia and other answers, very different from what we are force-fed from birth. What was the Church's reaction to their use? Not exploration and understanding in search of truth, but denial and destruction in the name of control ("the fruit of Satan"). How can it be that knowledge of sacred plants, which were used for thousands and thousands of years, is only now, in the last sixty years or so, being revealed to the rest of the world? I am not refering to synthetics such as LSD, but to the natural entheogens, which allow for a connection to the "whole" of existence. I am not suggesting that everyone trip on the entheogen of their choice. I do not believe that this is our purpose here on Earth. I am suggesting that life is much more complex than what most of us have been brought up to believe, and is becoming ever more complex ever more quickly. It is important that we do not close our minds to what is possible just because it does not fit in the Judeo-Christian mindset. I cannot question the existence of Jesus, whom I do believe exists, or of the power of prayer, which I fully believe in. But neither can I question the existence of the buddha or Muhammad, or of other realms beyond normal understanding. The message is the same. Ultimately, Love really is the answer. Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor.
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name...
I love this forum. It's great to hear all the different opinions and to engage in the exchange of ideas. However, at the most basic level the experience of God, the Absolute, the Other, the universe or what ever we choose to call it is not an intellectual excercise (and believe me, no one is more prone to try to intellectualize it than me)! My son and I had a first hand experience of God that was beyond description this weekend. We were at Delfest in Cumberland, MD. On Saturday we heard some really good music. We were enjoying a particularly hot set by Sam Bush when it suddenly began to rain. The rain was most refreshing as it had been a very hot day. Then the rain got harder and they stopped the show due to lightning. We dashed for our tent to ride out the storm. The rain kept coming down harder and suddenly the tent started being pelted with marble sized hail. Then the wind seemed to be coming from everywhere and sheets of rain were coming right through the rainfly. Our tent was becoming a lake! When the hail finally seemed to stop I decided to run for our car that was about 50 yards away. We made it okay and road out the rest of the storm in the car. Sheets of rain were coming down so hard we could not see anything around us. I popped in a CD and listened to Weather Report Suite as it seemed remarkably appropriate. As the music ended the storm subsided. All around us there were tents flattened (including ours) and everyone's belongings were scattered everywhere. The awesomeness of God had just been shown in the power of the storm, but the display of God at work was just beginning. Everyone was asking "Are you alright?" Thankfully everyone was. All around people were lending a hand to put things somewhat back together. Those of us who were staying pitched in to help those who had decided to leave gather up their belongings and get packed up. Everyone was united in helping each other. This was the ultimate display of God at work! This festival will certainly be an experience we will both always remember. "Listen to the thunder shout, I am, I am, I AM"
enjoy the fest!
Dawkins! The Salmon of Doubt?
Glad to hear that I'm not the only Dawkins fan on the site (maybe also not the only one with a Darwin fish and a Stealie on my bumper?)Interesting how very difficult it is to maintain objectivity and mutual respect on a subject that is so fundamental to the core of our beings. I've gotten a tiny bit better at it as I've gotten older. I'm corresponding with a beloved first cousin in another state who is having major health issues, and is querying me about my beliefs - worried that we won't be meeting in heaven (and we won't!) I think the big thing I've learned is to take it in the spirit in which it was offered. I believe this dialogue with my cousin was opened by her in the spirit of love and caring (although I do know her beliefs require her to witness, while mine only require that I not assault you while you are doing so). So I take a deep breath, and reach down into the biggest and best part of myself before answering. I used to get quite angry while being witnessed to by this branch of my family, but I think I may have gotten beyond that now. At least I hope so. I certainly plan to keep me and my Darwin fish away from the North Carolina folks though :) Have any of the Dawkins folks read The Salmon of Doubt by Doug Adams?
on why Jews are into jambands: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/current/articles/winter2008/cohen.html. Thanks to Barbara Saunders for the pointer!
as someone who was raised jewish i couldn't agree more...... peace and hugs to all
that article, Marye is realy good. I forwarded it to all my Jewish GD freaks ....now it's Sunday again....back to the ole naked praying......
a new view
The Dead have also touched me spiritually. Listening to the lyrics and getting lost in the music have somehow made me look at things differently and in a new way. I view everything around me differently and now have started exploring different things.
Rebirth through Ritual
Amen Jess87! Every time i saw the Grateful Dead it was like "church". A ritualistic loss of the self into the magical music of the Grateful Dead. Joseph Campbell explains this quite well. He even comments on the Gratefud dead and what is happening at the shows!!! I have seen the boys in every incarnation since the passing of Jerry hoping to have those same experiences again - thank you Phil for filling that void during the dry spell! However, this year I was able to see Change Rocks and knew that the magic pot was being stirred - not fully cooked yet, but had potential. I did this 09 tour through the two shows in Philadelphia and with the exception of Wilkes-Barre (a little boring) and the boys brought the spiritual magic back! I laughed, I cried, I lost myself once again in the music. I then saw them at Rothbury - the best I had seen them - can't speak to anything past Philly - have the downloads but you know how that goes. It was my trip to mecca to pray once again before the altar of the Dead. It is a transcendental experience that in the words of James Joyce are epiphianic!!!! I did pray at Rothbury and am looking forward to doing so again in 2010. Thank You! Thank You! Thank You
to stuman from other spiritual skies
Truths,like diamonds can be seen from various angles,some even shine in the dark,others cruise in invisible waves. The obvious cannot all be disregarded either otherwise all the creepy bullshit problems on this planet could be solved now with your sunshine peace! Maybe "gods" are immortals with particular characters who can choose to relate with mortals for a time/space but that is no guaranty of eternity for humans who can become such dreadful bores wi their smallminded headtrips. that's just an opinion,of course!
to stuman from grateful swan
Exploring these forums is interesting and new forr me so I often can't find such or such forum again! Exemple: find the "spirituality/religions forum only once and then it mysteriously vanished from lists of forums. Why? another point i don't have clear yet is this:for when i send a message to someone,does it land only as a public reading for anyone to see or can it be send as a more private comment mailbox for deadheads right on the dead .net? for exemple:this message " hey ka " you sent me lately does everyone on this site can read it? anyway,it"s grateful dead heads times for me again these last few days and I hope this music can go on! All these years since I left America I presumed none of you really coud ever careed if us deadheads lived or died,and I got away thinking it wouldn't even matter, except to me!
to answer your question, everyone can see a post you make in the forums, i.e. here. When you send someone a PM, only they can read it, unless of course they choose to distribute it further. People also have the option of blocking PMs, either entirely or from a particular person they don't want to hear from. You might want to familiarize yourself with the Very Few Rules topic, which explains in practical terms how things work around here.
to stuman from overseas skies
Ultimate Hope (for me) is about finding cosmis waves to other skies where consciousness can go breezing the roses in milleniumw gardens on other planets. Meanwhile I just read now you saying on a post I am not worth it because I argue my own opinions then the next day you said you love I remember I keep in touch. that's one of them typical grateful dead international conversation on the east coats of America maybe? The French folks are historically known for arguing in .It keeps dead minds away from sleeping too long.! In the old days ,in France,arguing salons were an aristocratic pastime and it was considered as utterly bad taste to never criticize .Nowadays frenchies have become dreadful bores but I aint' one of those yet. However rest assure that I don't bother explaining my meanings to tho se not capable to talk back.Besides if deadhead prefer to keep it to the goody holier than tho bit these dead net forum are not going to interest me for too long.For heavens 'sake ,as far back as Socatres and ancient Greece arguing was thought as proof of intelligence.As I don't know how to ship you this comment on PM (Personal Message?) I'll send this on the public forum grapevine.Amitiés !
To be perfectly clear
it is one thing to state differing points of view, and that happens all the time. Every time a Road Trips comes out, for example. Sniping at each other, however, is not acceptable, and this goes for everybody. Particularly in this topic; read the header. If you can't state your opinion without bad-mouthing another person who feels differently, you don't belong here and your account is not long for this world. There are plenty of places where that behavior is accepted; this is not one of them. That is all. Thank you.
Sorry hit "enter" accidentially... what I wanted to say is; I hear what you're sayin' ka.... I just think there are some ideas here that keep things categorized... which is way better than the old threads, imo. I like the gist of what you're saying though... "Truth is something you stumble into when you think you're going someplace else." ~ Jerry Garcia
Oh and no sniping... for sure!
... sniping isn't cool., like marye said. There are better ways... sniping is like alcohol in that it is a bit obsolete compared to what CAN happen along those lines. "Truth is something you stumble into when you think you're going someplace else." ~ Jerry Garcia
Like you am an american ex pat, living in Europe. Like you, I know ALOT about how French people love a lively discussion. How if one guy says the sun is yellow, another one will say it is blue-just to discuss it a bit more. The trick is finding a balance for expressing your ideas HERE, in a multi-national forum. In a way that says what you think, without sounding aggressive. Like my pal GRTUD here, I understood what you were saying. But I also see how your tone was seen as snarky-not everyone has this French fondness for friendly confrontational discussion and using irony to express themselves. Taking cultural differences into consideration is important. Also remembering that it is not always easy to read someone's mood or intended tone through written text; when we cannot hear the voice, nor see the facial expression. ********************************** Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge. Mark Twain
ok...i may be mistaken
but i got the impression the ka.swan was sniping at him (or her) self and is livin' in france.....of course my powers of perception my not be up to snuff. i dont believe any insults were intended just a bit of self-or national-deprecation...being well versed in self deprecation myself, ya unnerstan'
John Daido Loori
One of The greatest Zen teachers and writers in the United States passed away today. I thank him for his wisdon. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake
in addition, John was a very talented photographer / videographer... met him briefly at some exhibit a few years back in DC. http://www.mro.org/daido/ http://johndaidoloori.org/jdl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id… RIP, John, may the 4 winds blow you safely home. peace.
thanks, ben, for the reminder. needed that right about now.I love you, amd everyone here, too. peace and love and love and peace.