By suggestion. Digital? Analog? Old school? New school? Etc.
Vinyl is better...
...because the cover art is decent size. Well, someone had to start somwhere!
Thank you marye...
... for this topic. Without our home systems all we would be able to do is LOOK at our GD tapes, records, CD's, etc. And admittedly, while the cover art is fantastic on most of the GD albums, (Aoxomoxoa is just about as good as it gets- YMMV)...the real beauty is in the listening. Most ardent vinyl fans claim the analog sound is a "warmer" sound than that of a CD. I believe this to be true, but the CD has it's advantages. It won't get snaps, crackles, and pops like a record gets. (I sure hope Rice Krispies haven't copyrighted that terminology). Also the CD won't deteriorate through everyday playing, the way a record's grooves can be worn out by the diamond stylus of the phonograph. Of course (IMO) the speakers are the key link in the chain. I like my JBL's but I was pleasantly surprised to see the mentions of Klipsch speakers here. I think the horns give the speakers the articulation needed to hear everything clearly. Speakers are totally subjective, you listen and buy what ya like... Anyway, I know a certain 1973 GD fan who has a pair of Klipschorns and cranks em up real good from time to time... He may weigh in on this himself, huh what TC?!?! :))
Speakers maketh the system
Thanks for this forum. I'm no hi-fi buff, but I agree with buddy plant that you need a great pair of speakers to appreciate the live GD sound. I recently got a pair of Goodman's full range speakers with horns and they're in a box bigger than apartments I've lived in. The first thing I played was the Winterland 77 and it sounded so sweet and powerful compared to previous speakers (Bose 601s). With the CD/vinyl debate, I worked in record stores for 14 years and have been collecting both formats and IMHO, some bands sound better on compact disk remastered with 70+ minutes uninterupted, others sound worse on CD and should only be played as LPs where 20 minutes is all you need. I liken it to movies: some films must be seen on the big screen, others can 'live' on DVD/video - it depends. The GD need the big sound and Phil's bass and the drum sound to sound like drums. That's why i don't get iPods and the like,.
CDs are what I prefer
I prefer CDs over vinyl for the obvious reason that CDs are generally more durable. But as Simon mentioned, if one is new to these things, starting off with vinyl is a probably good idea! Patricia Ryans
Here's something only slightly related. I'm suffering from some pretty substantial hearing loss (mostly self-induced, I'm sure), so my ability to discern music nuances has eroded significantly over the years -- which is why FEELING Phil's bass is so much fun. I was talking to a guy who does ultra-high-end home theatres in Southern CA and in the course of the conversation I mentioned that what I needed was to have someone do a hearing test on me, then tune room acoustics and sound system to compensate for my defficiencies. And he said, "We do that! I test the hearing on each of my clients" and so on. Given that his cabinetry alone can run in excess of $100k, I guess it's only right. And I guess he's a little out of my price range...sigh. So tuned to my ears...exactly how bad would that sound to anyone with normal hearing? Ahh, who cares, it's my sound system!
so much lost.......
had our storage unit robbed and all my dead is gone....any help would work....any shows
so much lost.......
had our storage unit robbed and all my dead is gone....any help would work....any shows
Advantages of vinyl are not limited to decent sized cover art. Album covers are also ideal for rolling a number on whilst listening to the album. Probably the greatest difference between vinyl & CD is that - on a good system - an LP will produce a stereo image with much greater depth i.e. the sound stage is not only a left to right experience but also a front to back experience. I have yet to hear this adequately from a CD. The (allegedly) best CD's - gold ones, SHM ones etc. - go a long way to reproducing the "warm" sound of an LP but still lack depth. CD's score on durability as Patricia said and also on playing time. It is soooo nice to be able to hear "Live/Dead" in its entirety without having to keep changing sides/albums. As regards one's pride and joy, the sound system, I feel that the most important components are those that are used to transfer the signal acrss an interface. With vinyl, the crucial element is the cartridge which has to collect motional information from a wavy groove and convert it to an electrical signal. With all media the other crucial interface is where the electrical signal has to be converted to an analog waveform that travels through the air and into your ears. As such the speakers are probably the most critical element in a sound system. What happens between the cables coming out of the cartridge and the cables entering the speakers is much easier to get right. That is not to say that all amplifiers are equal, of course, even though the ideal is purely to amplify the signal rather than change it in any way.. Different types of amplifier will affect the signal in different ways. A class A transistor amp will generally produce a better output signal than, say, as class B amp, and a valve amp (typically class A) will produce a warmer sound than a transistor amp. I feel that the most important component in a CD player is the digital-analog converter. The biggest problem with all of this is getting a set of components where the whole system is greater than the sum of its parts and it performs how you want it to in your living space. To this end, I settled on a Koetsu Red cartridge (hand made years ago by some Japanese guy who is now deceased, so if it needs a new stylus I'm probably in trouble) mounted on an SME series V arm on a Pink Triangle PT TOO turntable, which is a poorly built but neutral and fine sounding turntable. For CDs I have a Theta Data Basic transport and Theta DS Pro Basic III digital signal processor with an additional HDCD board fitted. Next comes a Krell PAM 5 preamp and Krell KSA 100 power amp followed by a pair of Gale GS 401 A speakers. I used to have a variety of valve amps but they were so unreliable that when I moved from England to Holland I dumped them for the Krell. It is pretty good for a transistor unit and has given absolutely no problems in the 25 years that I have had it (a good thing, coz at 40kg I wouldn't want to send it off for repair).The Gale speakers are also old but fine. Not huge, more along the lines of a studio monitor. 4ohm impedance and good for at least 200W they can handle the power of the Krell with no problem. The whole system produces a warm but tight and crisp sound with excellent transients well suited to rock music, less good for classical (which I never listen to anyway). Bearing in mind that living rooms are generally "compact" in Europe, huge speakers, however desirable, are rarely an option. Electrostatics and the like that have to be placed 3-4ft away from the back wall are sadly just not viable for me - the furthest I can get from my speakers is about 16ft. So that is my 2 (Euro) cents worth. Whats yours?
I just blew my speakers
listening to Easy Wind on Workingman's Dead very loud They were old and after 5 years in (slightly damp) storage were never quite the same. Now they make farty noises. Now need some new studio monitors. What's good out there?
re: I just blew my speakers
Well CB, sorry to hear of yer speaker issues, but you may be able to have your speakers repaired. They may need new cones, or possibly new surrounds, depending on the design. You have to ask yourself some questions: Are they worth repairing? Did you like the way they sounded before the 5 years they spent in Siberian storage? The fact that they were old shouldn't have an impact on your decision, my speakers are over 36 years old. I've had to have both woofers re-coned over the years, once due to the Rhythm Devils on the Dead Set album played way too loud, and the other time it was Welcome to the Machine on Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here album. As I've gotten older I've learned to keep the volume slightly under 11...As far as what's on the market today, I can't give you any specific recommendations, except to go big! Don't worry what Mrs. Badger thinks of them, she will get used to them. Hopefully.
New speakers for Mr. Badger
In Europe, I assume. Check out the Acoustic Energy Reference Series AE1 MkIII. Maybe they are suitable. Link is: http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/Product_range/Reference_series/AE1_MkI… I have been trying to get to listen to a pair here in Holland, but haven't yet found a shop with a pair in stock. My Gale speakers (see above) are getting past their best (sagging cones I think). Apparently you should not be put off by their small physical size - studio monitors are generally not pantechnicon-sized. Anyway, check out the website.
farty noises from your speakers can't be good.......xoxox
can't beat the sound of new
can't beat the sound of new vinyl spinning on the ol' turntable. even if you taped that 1st spin on to tape, cassette or R2R the low end was muffled and the highs clipped.while i find CDs quite clean, more open sounding, i think i hear more from them compared to the album. but i would still rather have the album because of the artwork and the other good things it could do ; ) i still can just stare at "Aoxomoxoa" looking into the art at the art. it is the best as mr plant has said!
now about speakers
the best i ever heard in a house system was 1 voice of the theatre studio monitor in one corner and a pair of 15" JBLs in the other corner,plenty of bass, totally awesome. but the voice too huge. avid's sounded good but those got stolen, then i had a pair of bose but i didn't really like the sound not enough bass end, all highs, but damn clean highs. then i had the jamo's which i really loved but i would play them without the covers on (cat trashed em) and my daughter (not quite 1 at the time) would watch the woofer's bounce but then thought it more fun to poke her fingers through them, i think she even poked a pin in the tweeter cones a few times for good measure... very sad, but i still have them and thanks to buddy i have renewed hope of resurrecting them from the shelf in the garage. it was ten years that the house was quiet, then i got the klipsh which are as close to the 1st mentioned sound as i've heard and if i only had the sub-woofer i could make the pool balls bounce : )..., however the wife has a perpetual migraine so i don't get to listen much, if it ain't concert level it's not really worth it. which brings us to headphones, koss pro4aa's, enough said.
Acoustic energy speakers
Thanks for the tip Simonrob...the AE Mark III speakers look very nice. Then I checked the price: a gigantic £750 (more than $1000)...and then I realised ... THAT WAS JUST FOR THE STANDS! The Units themselves come in at around $3000 a pair (more for the 'Special Edition Version). Ouch. Way out of my league. They do seem to make some less extravagant models though
Cost of speakers
Mr. Badger - I was just trying to find out how rich you are! Jus' kiddin'. But seriously, with the pound continuing to fall against the Euro (almost parity now) it makes sense to look for new speakers in England. No import duty within the EU, retailers desperate to sell anything at silly prices etc. also make it worthwhile. Happy hunting.
I guess we're ALL searching for the sound!
TC, I'm sorry to hear that your wife has a problem with migraine headaches, that is just plain sad. Rock music is meant to be played loud, and that's obviously the last thing someone with a headache needs. I hope she can find a course of treatment that eventually leads to a cure, meanwhile I'm sending vibes out to her...Badger, you should not have been surprised at the price of the Acoustic Energy Reference Series AE1 MkIII speakers that simonrob recommended. Did you read his post describing his system? His Krell amp alone is over 5K USD, and that's just the tip of his iceberg! I'd love to hear some sweet GD tunes on your rig simonrob, I'm thinking of a rockin' Let It Grow, or maybe an Uncle John's... not to mention the power chords of Truckin', my mind is blown! Whoooo Hoooooo!!! Finally, for now anyway, simonrob said "My Gale speakers (see above) are getting past their best (sagging cones I think)." I wonder if Madonna has this problem too?
Now you know why I am not a big fan of MP3's! I hereby confess that my Krell was purchased second hand (or pre-used as I understand it is called in America). A new Krell is also way beyond my means. That it was used when I got it makes me all the happier that it has given me 25 years of 100% trouble free use. Spread over that long, it begins to look quite affordable. Also, when I purchased it, I was single and therefore did not have to face divorce proceedings as a result of my extravagance. Still I consider the money was better spent on a good system than on a flash car which would have been on the scrap heap years ago. All a question of priorities. Indeed, when thinking of "sagging cones" Madonna is the first thing that comes to mind. LOL.
only as good as your speakers
I have a home theater system by Samsung: Fair to middlin'.For my desk top I have some kickin' Altec Lansings - very, very nice (& unique) sound reproduction in my warm, comfortable home office. ~Let there be songs to fill the air.~
Dead on iPod
ten hours train rides every month and you will appreciate the Dead on iPod....some bands come out nicely..just like with Bill Frisell or Keith Jarrett..the same can't be said for Sonic Youth or NIN!
We like our euphemisms...
... here in the good old U.S. of A. Although a term usually reserved for cars, some salesmen will state "previously owned", or sometimes ya hear "gently owned". Either way it tends to make "used" supposedly sound nicer. That Krell amp WAS a very good bye, any piece of equipment lasting that long is a reflection on the Quality of the material, as well as the workmanship. Congratulations on such a wise purchase. Let's not get started on patch cords: "The Nordost Heimdall speaker cable sells for $1500 per 2m pair, vs $7040 for the same amount of Valhalla; the Heimdall interconnect is $600/1m pair, the Valhalla version going for $4000." Anyway, I just use Monster cables, they sound OK to me :)) And finally, I guess MP3's are sufficient for an Ipod type of device, but the compression is too much for a large home Hi-Fi system... YMMV
Digital? Analog? Old school? New school? Etc.
In practical terms, the analog vs. digital debate is largely irrelevant to me. Why? Because I like both in their own special circumstances. How fortunate we are to have this. I still have in my possession stereo equipment I have owned since 1969 and enjoy listening to vinyl with tube amps on occasion. But when it comes to digitally re-mastered material on HDCD, SACD or Dvd-A, I go solid-state high tech all the way baby, no matter what. Did the Dead ever use tube amps? I don't remember. They always worked to advance the technology though. There is one expection for my stereo systems, however (ed.: exception?). The main speakers are always old technology, and we know that the sound they produce has held up well over the test of time... just as the music has. Thank you.
I recently managed to grab a little-used Denon DVD2910 player on ebay France for a very good price and so can finally listen to my GD collection in HDCD. I am really pleased with it. I can really hear the difference in the sound from my old CD player. Brighter, clearer and much more precise at low volumes (much to the delight of Mrs Badger). It is especially good at making the best of the two track recordings that feature on so many releases. Now relistening to all the Road Trips releases. I wish it had made the switch ages ago, but HDCD never really caught on in Europe and compatible players are very hard to find. So thanks to all those who have made the effort to offer us HDCD ..now i get it :-)
OK, Sound Systems, HDCD
So, maybe I've been asleep or just busy, probably busy. And now with E72 and noticing that everything from the Dead Movie sound track on seems to be in HDCD, what is it? Wikipedia has some good info, and Tim from Audio Art in Richmond, VA helped point me to it; HDCD has been around for over 15 years. One of Audio Art's house brands seems to be Music Hall, and their MH CD 35.2 includes an HDCD decoder circuit. But first, how does everyone get their music from CD to iPod, for example? And what about just onto an 8, 16 or 32GB MicroSD chip to plug into that Logitech mouse Nano USB port that the installers plugged into the back of your Alpine XM head unit and stuck to your dashboard? And MicroSD chips can plug into a USB reader so small its got to have a little pod to keep it in so you don't lose it. Radio Shack has one that's not quite that small but still can fit into any USB port, whether attached to an auto audio system or your computer, or one of the component systems that have come along with USB ports in the front. Orvis, the clothing and fly fishing compnay has a small fly case and a groved rubber liner that can hold MicroSD chips, and only 32 x 32GB or 16 x 64GB chips = 1TB, so you can see how much of a library could be stored in a nice case in a glove compartment. Check out EAC: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/ "He's" subscribed to PayPal if you'd like to contribute (and BTW so has The Rex Foundation) but he used to dig getting post cards from around the world. So, does the chewing gum lose it flavor, one bed post over night? Or, rather, does the 20 bits of HDCD go back to 16 when you rip it with EAC to your hard drive? Still looking at a technical answer for that one, but according to WikiPedia, you can use a 24-bit sound card and any version of Windows Media Player past v9 (up to v11 now) to decode HDCD. I'll check out Macs with HDCD next. So my computer should be able to decode and play HDCD from the resulting .wav files if the 20-bit code is still there. These files do sound pretty good, even with this little set of computer speakers: http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?s=dhs&c=us&l=en&cs=19&k=GigaWorks+T… for example. I'm still searching past the Music Hall 35.2 [ http://musichallaudio.com/detail.php?p=80 ] because I have a small office room with a bookshelf system in the recessed window, and that space is a little shallow. The MH 35.2 is over 14" deep, and although Straight Wire can make angled power and interconnects, that's too deep to put in the windows, even if I cut into the backing that keeps the place soundproofed (2" of insulating foam). But, what's already there seems to fill the room with sound, and looks really cool in its tiny component footprints. I'd been looking for something to replace the Sony QBrick I'd had there forever —the big Sony ES pieces were in a different room— and got steered to the Sumiko (in Berkeley) site to consider Pro-ject boxes for components. They litterally are the size of decks of cards: http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/project_design_boxes.htm The FM Box is incredible for amount of info it packs into a postage stamp-sized display. Together with two mono amp boxes, a switch box and a pre-amp box and Straight Wire interconnects (Kimbers are too stiff for these short runs), I'm ready to put it down into a pair of Rega RS1s, made entirely in England, including the drivers: http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm So, in case you see a great HDCD CD player that's only 8" deep, please let me know! Cheers, Laser
Ouch. I couln't understand
Ouch. I couln't understand nearly anything about your sound systems... and don't dare to tell how is the one I have :(.
looking for headphone setup
I just bought a pair or refurbished Audeze EL-8 Open Backs. I listen to them directly to my iphone and they sound good, but lacking in the low end. When I hook them up to my old stereo headphone jack, they sound much much better. I can't wait for Audeze to release the cipher cable that plugs directly into the lightning connector and bypassed the analog of the iphone. I'm also giving some serious consideration to a Schiit stack - the Vali2 tube amp and the Multi Modi DAC. As for a DAP, heard positive reviews from Jim and Vince for the fiio players - the X3 or X5 sound intriguing, but do they have enought power to not need a separate amp to power the el-8s??? Pono has good reviews from the user community (Phil, etc.) I don't think I'd want to repurchase all of my music to get the better format, but would check it out. The only thing with that player is the form-factor - is that a toblerone or are you just happy to see me ;) The majority of the music I would listen to with this set up would be good ole' Grateful Dead - Vault releases from both multi track and 2 track along with an occassional distraction towards JGB, Bob Marley, Jam Bands, Classic Rock, Progressive Rock, Fusion Jazz, Radiohead, Steely Dan, etc. But the rig should play live Grateful Dead music the best - first and foremost - the rest is gravy. Thanks for reading - since this is such an active thread, please pm me if you write something...