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regardless of the definitions of 'demonizing' and 'fanatic', i understand the sense that Christians are people you ask to be 'protected from'. Christians are commanded to be salt and light to show the contrast between God's way and the world's way. lamagonzo is entitled to his thoughts, and Christians are commanded to love him and pray for him because he doesn't believe but maybe someday he will. it's part of the deal. believe me, gonzo- i can relate to all your comments-- but over time and circumstance, i came to see my life differently. maybe the same will be for you, maybe it won't- but i wish you joy and peace in your life like i have in mine. and i don't want you to feel attacked, nor do i want you to feel you need to be protected... clearly we all agree on some things-- so turn up the tunes and do unto others -- it seems like a good plan to me... God's blessings to you all. have a grateful day (in all ways grateful!) caroline

you've put into words what i often try to, and quite eloquently i should add, thank you for a thoughtfully written post..........and gonzo...don't take it personal, i just felt as threatened as you did. didn't mean to ruffle yer feathers.

crunch, crunch..smack........anyway....munch, chew......want a cookie?.chew, crunch, crunch, slobber, drool...........dude ...all are welcome here....you have views as do others..mebbe not from a religious standpoint but all are valid......'nother cookie?

i'll stop....didn't mean to start anything....occasionally i'm an ass..

us Demonists strongly object to the use of this word in a generic and highly negative sense. We are fed up with our beliefs being characterised in this way. If you would just take the trouble to try to understand us you will find that some of us are sometimes quite nice.

I think there is a distinction between those with strongly held and open religious beliefs (=devout believers) and those who try to force their beliefs and codes on others. When such folks seek political power or use mind games, aggressive tactics and violence to pursue their religious agenda then I think it is OK to call them religious extremists and, yes, fanatics. I find such people scary whether they are from the US religious right or the mullahs of Iran. Plenty of devout people post here, but I have not yet encountered anyone in this place who I would call a religious fanatic! signed A Grateful Dead fanatic!

friend badger

we can share the music......and THAT'S pretty spiritual!!

Nice reference to Estimated Prophet gonzo. What is interesting (to me anyway) is that the fairly innocuous word 'fan' is an abbreviation of the apparently more sinister 'fanatic'. And Marye is right of course, fanatics are not necessarily just religious. As for demons, well the only ones I actually know are my own and while not worshipping them, I am learning to get along with them ;-) I am just about to start reading 'God is not Great' by Christopher Hitchens the second major anti-theist work of the few years (the other is the great Neo Darwinist Richard Dawkins' excellent 'The God Delusion'). Curiously (or not) both authors are British, both precociously intelligent and both alternately inspiring and annoying. Should be a good read.

I loved "The God Delusion". Dawkins hit the nail on the head for me so many times in that book. I certainly don't chastise anyone for believing what they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone. But I'm a firm "non-believer". "Do unto others..." is the way to live. Plenty of morals & spirituality can be found without a god, IMO. Seey'all on TOUR!! ~ Pappy http://www.theCAUSEjams.com "Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." - Robert Hunter

In Mark, chapter 7, Jesus says: Do ye not percieve, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him ...For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders. Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. He may have walked the earth 2000 years ago but he left us the best description ever of network television. It's sad to watch greed destroy America. So let's walk together little children We don't ever have to worry Through this world of trouble We've got to love one another

that just plain makes my head hurt...........your point reminds me of the adage about stones in glass houses . we are ALL guilty

well.... i was raised jewish but come from an interfaith marriage... my dad is jewish and mom is catholic ....i went to orthodox hebrew school until the fith grade and hated ( if i knew a stronger word i would use it) every second of it at age 37 i still have an occasional nightmare about it....accordind to judaism that if the mother is not jewish the children are not...i am not sure what my father did to get me in that hell hole i still can't forgive him......every single day the kids would would call me names and what not because i according to them was not jewish..this only caused me to withdraw into myself and look towards god for cosaltion..when other kids wanted to play hide and seek i said lets pray....right up untill i became a teenager i wanted to be a rabbi...as most teens do i started explore the world beyond my front door but down a spritual path... i explored many religions (scaring the shit out of my dad).. at times i thought god was talking to me not some voices in my head thing but i would pray with evry ounce of my being and things would happen..everytime i needed a miracle i would stand outside the venue and make up a mantra and just start chanting and boom i would get a ticket in to hear jahovahs favorite quior... so i have come to the realization that god exist in all sentenant beings and what evry enrgy you put out comes bag but if you don't beleive nothing will happen because you don't put out the energy...now i am mainly a buddhist and thats how i will probably raise my kids as jewish buddhist.... sorry about the minie life story i just wanted people to undestand how i came to my beleife and i got exstreme cabin fever. let your life proceed by its own design

it's all about faith, right?...gotta believe, if ya don't, you'll never know for sure

I would like to try and state my spiritual views in as non-religious or non-denominational terms as I can, as much as possible, because I find many times it is the terms and not the concepts which bother people or set them off. I see everything in one of two ways. If I choose to see the world in way A:, what I term "US AGAINST THEM", I see the world totally and completely through the lens of my own set of beliefs, and any beliefs that differ from mine seem threatening to me, to the degree of strength that I hold my own. In this way of seeing, there is only room for one right view, mine, and every possible view must be compared against each other with generally the view seeming best for my own benefit, being the view that is held by me, in opposition to all other perceived views. There is only a finite perceived amount of room, in this view, to hold one's views. The more a view seems to disagree with the view I have chosen, the harder I fight against it. The other way, The B: Way, I have found to see the world is, US AND THEM. In this way, I hold my own view, but it is not threatened at all by the views that others hold , it is enriched by learning about others views, and being able to add to my view, the parts of others views that I like or that work for me. There is an infinite amount of room in this view for all points of view. The more, the richer. The more a view seems to disagree with my own held view, the more interesting it becomes to learn about, and from. So, for me, mentally-spiritually, it is all about whether I choose to see the world as US *AGAINST* THEM, or US *AND* THEM. I have found that the use of addition, instead of division, in my spiritual life, has resulted in much long lasting happiness. And the Grateful Dead have always been a great example of this type of thinking, for me, the type of thinking that eschews US AGAINST THEM thinking for US AND THEM thinking, in all the best meanings of that term. My 2 cents. free idea

I must say, I've never had more of a "spiritual" experience than listening to David Gans Dead Hour #554-56 ....well maybe at Sedona or in Yosemite. So listen to Wednsday's GD Hour, and you will here one of the best Morning Dew's I've ever heard in my life. And yes, I didn't see this live, just recorded the show one night in Tempe, AZ. The next day, I listened to it, and holy schnikies, that was even better than a vortex hitting your Head. I still have this tape today, A-Side DeadHour #556, B-Side (yes I was amazed by a homebrew) Primus-Pork Soda!____________________________________________________ Will you come with me? Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right!

wonderful concept and outlook,bro........anyone remember "i go pogo" the comic strip?.........we have met the enemy, and he is us.

Go Go PogoAs Maine go o so Pogo go Key Largo, Otsego to Frisco go to Fargo, Okeefenokee playin', possum on a Pogo, Stick around and see the show Go over Land alive a band o' jive will blow go Pogo, I go you go who go to go pollyvoo go, From Caravan Diego, Waco and Oswego, Tweedle de he go she go we go me go Pogo. Atascadero, Wheeler, Barrow, Someplace in Mexico, Delaware, Ohio and you don't need the text to go. Wheeling, West Virginia, With everything that's in ya, Down the line you'll see the shine from Oregon to Caroline, Oh, eenie Meenie Minie Kokomo go Pogo Tishimingo, sing those lingo, whistling go. Shamokin to Hoboken, Chenango to Chicongo, it's golly, I go goo goo going go go Pogo. -Walt Kelly

joined the native american church a few years ago, not long after registering with the local tribal council as a native american thru his mother, a tlingit. he had been struggling with various addictions, not the least of which were a bad taste for heroin and an even worse taste for alcohol, since not long after we left high school. with jerry's death he hit a downward spiral. i had been telling him for years to please find a direction cuz nursing him thru od's and withdrawl was taking a toll on my family. after crashing his bus one day and finding a half gal of whiskey spilled all over his feet he finally realized that he could have killed someone .with the tribe's help he found treatment and as he told me later "the church gave me a direction". his wife, of blackfoot descent was raised catholic and i occasionally find them sitting next to me at mass. he now uses a sweat lodge on a regular basis. he is still a longhaired freak. being this forum is about spirituality in general, i thought i would share my friends story.

Johnman Thanks for sharing that story I too have had friends in the day that struggled with addictions Some of them won their battles and others lost It takes a lot to confront a person who struggles with some sort of addiction Its even harder when their your friend All in all I believe God gives us the ability to comfort others sufferings or help in their struggles. In turn God eases our own suffering since we understand what others are going through Nothing makes me feel better than going to one of Bostons shelters to serve a meal to the homeless or collect food for my towns pantry I was once told when I first started doing my work that you never know when you may be in the presense of God He takes many shapes and forms when in a human image. Thats why we should be treating each other as a brother or a sister since you never know The Cat

that god REQUIRES us to help one another.....and far too often I fall short and end up worrying about my OWN concerns, instead of others.........someday i'll learn, i just hope it's soon cuz we're ALL taking a beating

You're a good man, Johnman!!!!!!!!********************************** It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

if not then it should be........

That is the quote. It came from Chet Helms who gave it to Wes Wilson and was used along with the Indian wearing the top hat and his pipe as the logo for the Family Dog who ran the Avalon Ballroom. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake

Ok, "us and them" why are we not WE? fine idea. cultures, hate and religions bring this to us the human population of the the big blue world. All religions mention "love thy brother" but is not practiced on all terms, to kill or to clense in the name of God. this is only predjudice. One belief in God is the same for all no matter how the name of. the name God is universal. Think about it do some research, fascinating stuff. Earthy religions as Wiccan or Druid are still relative because is to believe in a power higher than one's self. To each his own and live and let live are powerful words, but could also be a copout for not giving a shit all together. Are we working towards this as reality. HOPE, We all have some form of predjudice or bias, and you if you don't think so look deep inside yourself, cause if not you are fooling yourself. People die in horrid ways each day over religeous beliefs. Others over territory and money related to geographical location and social status. And as we have seen in the past some use religion as a financial enhancer, scapegoat and justification for whatever. That stuff really gets me The teaching of is not wrong though many will twist it in hateful, false, manipulative and cynic ways. There are many views and practices that I personally don't agree with, But I'm not burning down the house or trying to convert your children after killing the parents or to ethinacally cleanse a country to where societies have lived for thousands of years. but only after searching and learning where and why it is. And not say that it is wrong in anyway and promotes the well being and faith of. As for me I have been Baptised christian in an Episcapol church. cool good for me, had no contol at that time. Do I disagree with the whole thing No. probably need some saving. am no choir boy hehehehehehe. Have been exposed to many religions and beliefs and always had to question things. I will make the following statement and maybe need to educate myself more, but think Catholocism is a very materialistic religion. one of status and hyprocrocy. The more gold and stuff we have we are closer to God, why confess to a miidle man and not to To god himself, Why is the Pope greater than any other man. is his FAITH that much more than the common man. Kiss the ring on your knees. not clicking here. So I can go do anything bad on a fling confess my sins give 20 bucks and I'm in. The catholic church is corrupt and has more money than the mafia. Like the crusifiction of Jesus of Nazareth. What a while later Romans say woops we fucked up, must repent now. Now all must be Roman Catholic to believe in the son of "God" to where as Jews do not aknowledge Jesus. Wow. hey can't stop learning I hope to find answers to my questions. I lived in Italy for 10 years, poulation is 99% catholic. I was married in a Catholic church in Vicenza, Italy with mosaics dating back 2000 yrs. very beautiful church of classic Roman design. acoustics are great. she had her friends play on the sidelines, during ceremony and played at on point, kinda coordinated too, IMAGINE, all acoustic was really touching. Guess could call that our wedding tune. As the Soldier and the Nurse join hands, each has a piece in the futre of life. fantastic stuff. Had to sign a paper, because I was not catholic that my child would be raised catholic before they would allow me to be married there. mmmmm prime example of a us and them. maybe, was fine for me. Me, when I'm there take communion you know the body and blood of christ, and do so in any church that I enter that pratices that, without ever making first communion or attending required classes, because if was denied Would really make a scene as to question the integrity of the priests themselves, I am a child of God no matter the name. The whole confessin thing still kinda boggles me. what if I was to walk into a church enter confessional , and say forgive me father fo I have SIN' first of all he's not my father. ok a representive of God by vows taken???????????????????. Would I be sent away for not bieng catholic or member of the church, gimme 50 and I'll hear you. Ok enough of that, How many of you have ever laid on the ground, looked to the sky and said God can you hear me, gotta a couple things to say, smiled and went on your way?. I feel very lucky to have experienced so much, cultures, religions, countries and people that some of WE may never get the oppurtunity to do. everyday a child is born and an elder is gone, take another by the hand, because everything can't always be taken with a grain of sand. when there is no pebble tossed

hey all my last post was pretty long, hope you may have take the time to read it would love some feedback. anyway guess I was just going off, started to write and kept going. haha whew. Let it grow!

in the early part of your post, i'll paraphrase....it's all the same higher power, be it wiccan or christian or islamic.....jewish too........i was raised a catholic and regularly attend catholic mass......i have never been charged admission....all are welcome .......and confession is just what it says...confession....doesn't mean you can sin and get away with it....it's what in your heart....we all sin ...and confess or not in our own fashion. sometimes it's easier to get something off your chest if you know there is someone to talk to that won't condemn you.....what turns me off is the televised evangelists that may or may not be sincere, wanting you to send them your hard earned dollar while wearing a $300 suit and wearing enough gold jewelry to choke a small horse. and yeah.....why must humans kill in the name of their version of "God"?.........buuuuut i talk too much....so i'll stop now.

It really is. I believe in the cosmos above before I choose to believe in this "God" fellow. There is no right religion and there is not one God, but I do believe that there is something larger than myself out there... we just need to have faith. I am currently beginning to practice yoga on a daily basis, not just once or twice a week and I have found that through the yoga and meditation practice I become very tuned in and very centered around my place in this world. Lots of these thoughts of religion come in and out of your head, but it all comes down to knowing thyself. Any great spiritual leader will tell you that it is only within you where strength, reason, compassion and love come from. It is by knowing yourself that you allow yourself to find something greater. Now I too am starting to ramble, the point is that we have to accept what happens and move on. Yes the church may have way too much money, but it is with the numers of people that changes occur. You have to be the change that you want to see. I don't believe in killing for love either, but loving for love... all you have to do is practice! sweet dreams everyone as I am off to bed. ~littlebri remember the wise words of Gandhi "There is no way to peace, peace is the way."

from the Seattle Times August 9 1995 Quotes: "You need music. . . . We need magic, and bliss, and power, myth, and celebration and religion in our lives, and music is a good way to encapsulate a lot of it." - Jerry Garcia. A "grateful dead" is a type of traditional British folk ballad in which a human helps a ghost of someone who has died recently find peace. Wednesday, August 9, 1995 By Elizabeth Weise Copyright (c) 1995 Seattle Times Company, All Rights Reserved.

Love Jesus, Love Jerry(I'm alittle miffed @ Bob right now but I'm sure I'll get over it) God Bless the Grateful Dead!

i want one i want one!!!.........or 2

Never did like being labeled (stuck) to a certain denomination....yet I do believe!____________________________________________________ Will you come with me? Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right!

george clooney's line in "oh brother where art thou"............ " I'm the only one unaffiliated!"

I know another golf pro and that's his favorite movie of all time. Conversation is always more interesting than recitation, so speak your mind and not someone else's.