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When our previous topic hit the 1,000-response mark, sleazy behavior by politicians was eliciting a certain amount of non-astonishment.
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Herman Goering: Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
Cogent, GDean...
However it seems to be corporations who are leading the governments around by the nose. One needs to only look at the revolving door between each regulator and the industry they regulate as well as the lobbyists. The system works with vicious effectiveness.
Suzy Creamcheese! Whats got into me today?
Gosh, Gonzo....
Must you insist on making sense???..............can i have some of that creamcheese...smeared on a cookie?
Corporation, governments
I think that the mechanism is still the same. Just thought I throw out what a bona fide Voice of Evil had to say on the subject of war...the more things change, the more they don't.
ELO member
Mike Edwards from ELO was killed when a 600 kilo bale of hay fell from a tractor onto his van!
RIP and what a freak accident!
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By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
The Sadness Monkey
is sitting on my shoulder doing something strange to my ear and laughing at my inability to access the chatroom...............sigh!..............this is a little known species, related to the Flying Monkeys...who are, of course, famous for their finesse at stealing beer and flying it to Iowa, and sometimes Spain.
Boulder County Fire
The most destructive fire in CO history is burning down Fourmile and Lefthand canyons. At least 135 homes are burned to the ground and the fire is only 10% contained assuming these nasty winds do not come back. Not to mention the other 3000 some evacuees. The smoke is so thick in the air that it is wreaking havoc on eyes throats and lungs. I don't think there have been any fatalities but I know of a couple of friends who have evacuated and have not heard from others.
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
There is a homeless encampment...
...under the Interstate highway bridge near the railroad tracks in the area where I live. We have the best employment scene in this locality in three N. New England states (unemployment at4%) so I wondered why this could possibly be there, and growing. I went to the local homeless shelter and asked what was up. They said that the people of that camp were former residents of the shelter that had used up the maximum number of nights allowed per year. They weren't crazy, lazy or drug addicted. They just didn't have good enough credit to even get into section 8 housing where only half the units are occupied.
There is a movement among small local banks in this country to to give away $100 to 100 people in the area where they do business. I applaud that and am calling a small local bank with a shiny 5 story headquarters about a mile from this encampment today to ask if they are willing to give away $100 to each resident there. Maybe it won't make a difference in getting these people indoors before the first really hard frosts hit but I know having money in the pocket means a great deal in terms of comfort and hope.
All I know is "There but for the grace of God go I".
Even worse fires burning in Moscow, Russia
An above average season in terms of fires is predicted this year. It is due to global warming. It is an effect that feeds on itself. The less trees, the more pronounced the effect becomes.
They said on the news that a lot of the fatalities from the CO fire came from people who would not abandon their homes. Maybe insurance is a good idea as well as having your valuables packed in portable boxes for a quick getaway.
I have not heard of any deaths
But word on the street is that someone backed into a propane tank that exploded. It certainly was not lightning since it hasn't rained much lately, so this was a human error. I don't know if I agree with mandatory evacuations, I think people can make their own decisions whether to leave or not, hell it's your home, it's hard to leave that behind and may vey well be worth risking your life for. I do agree that if you live in the mountains or on a river bank or on a beach it is a good idea to be prepared for disasters.
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
Yikes! Now 'All recent posts' is down
Looks like Dead.net is descending in to chaos.
on the domestic Muslim lunacy front...
... the preacher now decides he won't burn the korans and Trump wants to buy out the owners of the Islamic community center in NYC. this week has been way to screwy for me. i think it's time to take a break, for me anyway, till things get back to their usual level of insanity...
about these monkeys johnman
How comes they only fly to iowa or spain whats the connection ? i can find no evidence of these little fuckers anywhere.I did misplace a cold one the other night ahhhhh thats where it went.
picking up on what tigerlily said
A fifty stone bale of hay crashing into your van is a freaky thing apparently the elo cellist had just battled with cancer and depression and came out on top. Very sad.
My the four winds blow you safely home
and back to this domestic muslim lunacy
im out when it comes to this subject had enough Terry jones is not going to be burning bibles anymore because he has been assured that the mosque is being relocated that aint the case.Up pops Donald trump with his talking hair hes a concerned citizen and wants to help ermm is that the only reason Mr tramp.
A bank and the homeless
So I asked the local community bank to follow a current trend among smallish banks and credit unions wherein they donate $100 to 100 people in the local community where they do business. They have the largest, most modern building in the small town that is the business hub in this rural region. They make a very good profit off the people in this area. They could easily afford to give away 10k and probably make it all back on the good publicity alone.
Would they do it and start with the people of the local homeless encampment not more than a mile from their opulent operations center? No, they would not. They also refused to acknowledge that other banks are giving away ten thousand dollars in some localities around the country (which is a fact, heard on All Things Considered, the national news program of National Public Radio). They also refused to believe there is a homeless encampment on the banks of the Connecticut River. After all, if there is no problem and no bank is seen being generous then there is no need to feel guilty about doing nothing as the weather turns colder.
I am not surprised. Disgusted maybe, but not surprised.
Hope everyone is ok in San Bruno
Unbelievable! What a terrible week for fires.. at least they have a decent handle on the Boulder fire (I think it is 30% contained).
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
Flying Monkeys
The Flying Monkeys were mythologically realistic creatures from the pre-historic days of this chatroom. They were devious little buggers, who tended to swipe beer and deliver it to chatroom friends in other parts of the world-Spain because that's where Sunshine Daydream and I were living-he in one corner of Andalucia and me in the other. We never knew exactly when the lil devils would strike, but they seemed to be particularly fond of visiting Sunshine Daydream; especially after his afternoon 420! Johnman, any sightings lately?? I suspect that the modern bouts of chatroom drama were not to their liking, and that they may have followed the dinosaurs into extinction-which would be very sad indeed.**********************************
By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
Trump the financial Tramp
What happened to him being bankrupt? Well I guess if you are called Trump, bankrupcy still means a few hundred million in petty cash lying around or what??
Burning books that are holy for so many people is just MEAN! Yes, in theory this moron is within his rights to express himself by doing so, but I guess I am against offensive symbolic gestures. I am not overly fond of US media these days, and the Tea Party, etc, but I still would not burn a US Flag or anything, because it risks offending normal every day folks. Am against being an a-hole to get my point across, personally would rather stick to arguing facts.
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By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
It's a struggle TL
But I'm in agreement with you. Preserving our rights means allowing idiots to do stupid, offensive things. How this podunk small-time pastor got so much publicity...I guess I mark that down to the 24-hr news cycle, the age of the Internet and instant communication.
It's also the age of zero personal responsibility. The guy in question is currently disavowing responsibility for any harm that's come to people protesting his provocative words/intent. And while it's true that the responsibility for violence lies with the people doing the violence (and the violence proves the preacher's point, as far as he is concerned), knowing that your words and actions are certain to result in inciting violence in others...there's a burden to be borne there as well, IMO. You'd think a professed man of god would get that.
Personally, if there are objects in the world that I hold sacred, books are at the top of the list. And Beatles records.
Really, who would ever stoop so low as to burn Beatles records to make some kind of point?
Indeed Dean
I learned in law classes in college that freedom of speech stops at directly inciting others to violence-and burning holy books is a pretty much guaranteed going to incite violent reaction. Though the line in this case is still blurry between direct and indirect.
And yes, you would think that a self-professed man of God would be conscious of his moral responsibility to others, and try to be a good example as opposed to a rabble-rouser.
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By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
Burning any religous or national symbol (flags)
Is a direct call for violence. Simple as that. And as George Carlin always said, none of us have rights. Say what you will but you better understand that there is a certain responsibility behind what you say especially when you are addressing the public. Worship whomever or whatever you want but don't push that on me, the list goes on and on..
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
freedom's just another word...
It seems to me that some folks proclaim the magic word ‘freedom’ so much that it has diluted and cheapened its meaning. They end up acting like spoiled kids, using a simplistic interpretation of the concept of freedom to excuse offensive, antisocial, selfish and stupid behaviour. Freedom is a complex concept (as Marye has previously pointed out) and itself needs to have limits. If those limits are not to be set by the State (something I admire as being fundamental to the American way), then it should be the job of responsible citizens to define those limits themselves thorough their own behaviour. For many people in the world freedom has a more fundamental meaning than freedom to act like an attention seeking brat; they seek freedom from fear, oppression, discrimination, dispossession, disenfranchisement and enforced poverty.
If Jones wants to give the message that Americans will not be intimidated by radical Islam then there are many more intelligent and productive ways of doing it than burning Korans.
Anyway it seems that Jones has found a way out of the corner he got himself in by claiming that God has conveniently given him a message to back off. It’s a shame really, because I was about to stage my own special protest against his idiocy and teach him not to mess with me. By exercising my freedom to rip up a bible and use it to.....oh never mind. I miss Frank Zappa.
"Spoiled kids"
I like that one Badger!!
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
Wish I could see the vid
But it's blocked on the computer I'm on.
The flip side of the coin for me is the seemingly huge number of people in the world who think that being offended is justification for violence. Slightly offended (Hey, Yo mama!) to profoundly offended (burn my holy book, my flag, etc). It would be nice, for once, to be able to put some of these things in perspective.
Here we have guy whose message from God is to protest radical Islamists (and as far as he's concerned, all Muslims are radical) by burning Korans (I have to admit that I am curious as to where he's getting his Korans...I know I don't have pile gathering dust in my house anywhere. And now that he's not going to burn them, what's he going to do with them?).
First, why do we pay any attention to ANYONE who claims to receive personal messages from God? That's an instant signal to me to move on. Second, he's got like 30 or 50 members in his church -- those numbers should tell us something. And here we all are, the entire world it seems, giving him the time of day. Huh? Let it go, give it up. Save your indignation for something that's worth the effort....
Woody Allen & Sarkozy(s)
Sarkozy's wife had a small part in a Woody Allen film, that himself produced-and got the cut??Am finding this combination hard to believe, but funny somehow.
French soccer team goes home in disgrace and Prez's wife chopped out of a film. Vive la France!
Is this all true CB, or just strange German rumor about our neighbors?
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By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
Freedom of speech
As with anything else, should be tempered with common courtesy, and respect for others, both concepts that seem to be sorely lacking in the modern world, and not just in the US . No, Tiger...have been no recent sightings of the winged rodentian thieves, but I suspect they are in collusion with the Nazi frog, who I believe may have left the confines beneath my dining table and ventured into my backyard, which the Mouse has recently rescued from the ever present Northwest Blackberries.
Haven't had much to say
for the last bit as I've been working crazy hours at work and then by the time I got things taken care of at home have had little time for much else. Got a little time now so I'll give a little input on some of the recent topics.
First let me say my thoughts and prayers go out to all those involved in the CO and CA fires. I live in VA and its interesting to me that we have been under warnings of the possibility of severe fires here. That's not the norm here. Its been so hot and dry this summer that the countryside is a tinder box waiting for a disaster. Just one more sign of global warming! Its getting very scary what we've done to the planet.
On the issue of burning Korans and free speech let me say that burning any holy book is offensive. This guy in FL is a total wacko and its unfortunate he's gotten the press he has. I heard on some news outlet that he had been dismissed from his previous congregation for stealing money from the church. This probably tells us something about this guy! I'm a passionate defender of free speech as I am terrified of what could happen without it. However, the point is well taken that with freedom comes responsibility and people should think about the impact of their speech on others. If free speech is abused it may be taken away. Its a shame we can't remember to speak with respect for others.
Finally, I'll share a personal decision I've made relative to some of what's currently going on. I was watching the movie Gandhi a couple of weeks ago. One of my favorite movies about someone I consider one of the greatest men in history. While watching it and considering the current mood in this country it occurred to me that I needed to actively reach out to the local Muslim community. It took me a while to act on this impulse as procrastination is one of my worst traits. I finally called the local mosque after hearing the FL nut case talking about burning Korans. I've been invited to worship with them and plan to go next Friday. I'm sure it will be a leaning experience for me and will hopefully help foster understanding in some small way. Experience has taught me that those "other" people are always less scary once you get to know them. I'll post results of how this goes.
Peace to all! Good to be back!
Excellent
Tphokie. I think that is a very important point you are touching on-it's easier to be afraid of Muslims (or any other people) when you don't actually know any. I have been fortunate enough to have fact to face conversations, and also friends from Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Bosnia, Turkey, and a muslim minority refugee from Montenegro. A wide range of people from different places who practise Islam. More importantly, thank goodness, so have my children. I could tell stories from heartbreaking to hilarious that happened amongst us-the same as happens during any other interaction between human beings.
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By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
good on you!!
tphokie1......that's something we should all do more often...from politics to everyday life, extend a hand!!...I wish more people would understand that WE are ALL "those other people".
No kidding
That will be a learning experience for sure tphokie!
I may not overly enjoy by job but I will say that where I work it is very ethnically, culturaly and religiously diverse. By mingling with these diversities over the past decade I have learned a lot about tolerance and even acceptance of others' beliefs. I may not totally buy into what they are saying but I at least respect their views.
"The dire wolf collects his due while the boys sing round the fire"
I disagree on the matter of free speech
If you don't use your rights you will lose them. Burn flags, burn the Koran -- THAT is called freedom (as long as they are your flags and your Korans). When people start to riot and commit real crimes against living things and property that is not their own, they become criminals, they have crossed the line. I am so sorry to see everybody so willing to give up their rights. That is frightening to me. WTF people???
On Gandhi
I would agree, TPH1, that Gandhi is one of the most significant figures in recent history. He was a luminary that was way ahead of his time. By having an opponent with a modicum of civility he was able to free his country. But it came with a price we are still paying today. It is called Pakistan.
Still, nonviolence is the way of the future and Gandhi was the Godfather.
I would NEVER espouse giving up ones rights
But to do something with the express intent of hurting someone just smacks of meanness to me. There must be a way to get ones point across intelligently and courteously.
lamagonzo
To clarify my position on free speech: "When push comes to shove" (as someone once said) I would actually defend the nut in FL's right to burn the Koran. Losing free speech is very frightening to me as well. I am just saying that when people exercise their free speech it would be in everyone's best interest if they did it responsibly. Regardless of what I feel, the government may at some point decide to restrict speech they consider dangerous. Its been done in the past, usually when we are at war, and it is a scary place to go. Many people have expressed their feelings about Muslims, the ground zero mosque etc. in ways that haven't had the government threatening to step in! I'm urging the pastor in FL to moderate his own speech but will resist any effort by the government to stop him.
Thanks Johnman,
And I still have to reiterate that I'm against burning anybody's holy books and building anything Muslim anywhere near Ground Zero. Insensitivity and bad taste are not against the law though.
As today is the 9th anniversary of 9/11, I think it is in good taste and appropriate to remember all those victims who lost their lives nine years ago today. It was an unbelievable act of barbarity that has spread pain and suffering around the world. When will we ever learn to share the bounteous harvest of this planet? Not soon enough (sighhhhhhh!!) .
: ~ {{
Just what kind of insanity does the radical fringe of Islam believe in that they get their rocks off doing this kind of thing? They need to study nonviolence and the teaching of Mahatma Gandhi. I pray that they reflect and change their ways before we all live in a police state where the only thing that is not under tight control are the thoughts in your head!
I pray that
ALL radical fringes, EVERYWHERE..... take that advice.....though, of course, it won't be right away.....darn it
9 Years ago...
I stepped into the lounge at my former place of employment for a cup of coffee. The TV was on and I glanced over to see the image of a burning tower, and watched in horror as the second plane center-punched the other building.....forever burned into my memory.... My eyes are filling with tears as I type this.....when will we learn.....we humans cause each other such pain...daily, hourly......when will we learn.......
on 9/11/01...
...I was at home saying prayers. I turned on National Public Radio at noon after my second session and heard the news. Shock, disbelief -- a sense of angst. I went out and bought a flag and pinned it up on the wooden fencing at a construction site across the street where I had been doing free form political art. Little did I know flags would be hard to come by in the coming months
Some of the following days were crazy. Seeing vigilantes patrolling the interstate highway. Guards at important public areas like resevoirs. The National Guard at the intersection of I90 & I95. Little did I know that things were to get even worse. I'm sure everybody remembers that whacko who sent weapons grade anthrax through the mail. That had to be the absolute low point. I really thought that my world was descending into chaos.
I got on the phone with my father and told him that these were dark days indeed for the republic and that I had no idea what would happen next. I felt the need to assure him and my mother of the love I had for them and express the thought I might never see them again. (That anthrax, by the way, was made at a US military weapons lab in Ames, Iowa. They never caught the perp., though they had a pretty good idea of who did it, not Muslim terrorists but a right-wingnut).
9 years later here we are talking about which rights we're prepared to give away to continue to live a safe and secure existence. Even if another US citizen doesn't die I think we've lost a significant measure of freedom. I am very sad about that as I think this whole matter could have been approached differently. But that is not the topic today...
600 years of environmentalists
I was watching a fascinating documentary about the Bishnois, in what is now Rajastan. In 1485 their Guru told them they must protect trees and all living things, and the group has followed his teachings religiously to this day. In modern times they are active against poachers and tree-cutters, and they have a wildlife preservation territory; where they house wounded animals until they are healed enough to return to the wild.
This was a very rousing and inspiring documentary, and completely new information to me, so I thought I would share it with y'all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishnois
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By trying we can easily learn to endure adversity -- another man's I mean.
Mark Twain
J'man & the fringe radicals
I guess I'm a mainstream radical, not a fringe one. Still, I have to take issue with Johnman wishing away all fringe radicals with a gentle reminder: It is only through the efforts of certain (the ones that history shines a light on and successfully end up changing things, like the Minutemen who gave birth to the USA) mainstream and "fringe" radical elements that anything ever changes for the better.
I do know where your sentiment is coming from J'man -- obviously fringe radicals and their supporters who believe strongly that the end justifies the means are the source of every truly horrific thing (mass killings, etc.) that has ever happened on our planet. This is really a double-edges sword.
If we come to have a complete police state where there is little freedom and everything is tightly controlled, then that will be the end of our evolution and the status-quo becomes completely frozen -- until another fringe radical group gets things moving again. You see the problem that every government faces that ever wished to be monolithic.
One other thing, Johnman, you can't be all things to all people. I respect a person more if they stick to one position. That statement is in regard to our previous discussion of people's free expression of their rights. I guess the old saying goes: "I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." 6 billion people will never find a way to only politely express their opinions, unfortunately. But I am always happy to hear you politely expressed opinion, especially on the matter of cookies --
"The chairperson recognizes the distinguished Senator from Mrs. Fields, err, ummm, excuse me, Famous Andy's."
" I may not agree......."
I support that 100% Gonz, and put my butt on the line for 20 years in defense of that. I swore an oath to defend the Constitution, an oath that can never be rescinded......but I can dream........'scuse me while i have another Nutter Butter Peanut Butter sandwich cookie