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  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Set and setting

    Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to articulate.
    That the environment that we and the band were now forced to live in was perhaps the biggest factor in the diminishing returns etc.
    I don’t think they liked it any more than we did, but what were they going to do, other take a break like they should have…
    And of course that environment was created to attempt to deal with the over extended masses. And yeah, overall the people weren’t generally as bad as I may portray, but bad actors and behavior were increasingly evident, and often more heinous, and especially in specific places or types of places etc.

    Daverock, Im guessing in your unusual situation:
    1- yes, probably not your usual run of the mill DHs like some of us here.
    Fanatics with the ways and means perhaps. Ya know, the more invested in something, the more folks will get worked up. For some perhaps combined into a lifetime European vacation.
    I know DL saw some of those 90 shows, as I think he was studying there? I forget…
    2- extra hype and excitement as they hadn’t been to Europe recently
    3- I believe Kesey and co were there and even brought Futhur 2
    4- the return of DS, Attics etc inserted a huge hit of adrenaline to the scene in general, so guessing over there also.
    5- the popularity explosion via TOG/ITD must have had an effect over there too
    6- concerts and crowds in general had changed by then
    7- perspective: you weren’t that experienced in live GD madness etc (that’s not a criticism! I mean how would you be…) and the saying “there is nothing like a GD concert” worked on many levels. So unlike us, who almost took for granted usually hitting as many shows as we reasonably could on spring, summer, and fall tours (say between 5-15 a year average) it must have been a very unusual and eye opening experience, especially compared to 81!

    But of course as first show says, much of this is perspective dependent fo sho!
    Like many of our more aaa “mature” heads here, they got turned off in the 80s because of the environment changes etc.
    if your normal perspective was the Fillmore, even a small hockey rink might become unenjoyable, especially with reserved seating and so many people, comparatively.But If all you’ve ever known is Giants stadium, and never freaked freely in Maine, or Cali, Hampton, or any of the many sweet, smaller, outta the way places they used to be able to play, well your perspective might not think things so bad?
    To me no more GA was the biggest negative factor that effected our show enjoyment. Sure a stadium is never gonna give you the same vibe, but if you were able to hang out where you wanted, which as sound freaks was usually the SB, it made a big positive difference.

    So the slow but steady population growth, later exasperated by the tsunami after 87, which also attracted too many civilian non heads just about for the bollocks, which led to having to play big crappy venues in crappy places, and no wonder folks used to a completely different experience in every way, gave up…

  • daverock
    Joined:
    Sense of place

    Another factor in crowd behaviour may be related to where the show took place. The shows I saw were in London, so U.S. Deadheads had to travel some considerable distance to be there. This must have made it impossible for many who followed the band to attend. I have never read a message on the board from anyone in the U.S. who went to Wembley in 1990. What distinguished those who travelled from those who didn't ? Lack of responsibilities? More money? Youth...
    I don't know if this relevant, but young Brits abroad used to have a terrible reputation for behaving less responsibly abroad than they did at home, simply because they were on holiday. They were renowned for over doing it in Amsterdam in the 90's where some of them flocked for the ready availability of dope. A few hours after arriving, many of them would be incapacitated!

    So...in a nutshell, the shows I saw cannot be regarded as typical simply because they took place in England.

  • mkav
    Joined:
    ORO

    I saw the GD and offshoots when I could from 1975 until, well, today. I was never what you'd call "hardcore" in that I never went on the road, but was, and am, a very avid fan. I guess I'm a little clueless since, other than the sheer size of the crowd and therefore venues, I never really noticed the deterioration in the "quality" of the fanbase that I've read so much about.
    Well, until 1995. I was in Maryland Heights, Mo. for the show after the Noblesville fiasco. The fans in the lot were pissed. The band was pissed based on the letter they circulated, nd their general demeanor.
    The 7/6/95 show was lackluster (great setlist, though)...partly due to Jerry's health, but I'm also sure due to the band's state of mind.
    I appreciate the perspective of those were more intimately involved with the entire scene than I was, over time. Thanks for posting.

  • 1stshow70878
    Joined:
    Oro

    Nice essay Pedro!
    It is about perspective I suppose.
    I had so few shows compared to everyone here but that timeline felt the same. Luckily I had nice venues so the ugliness just wasn't that noticeable. That said I knew I was done after my '94 show and even had the weird feeling that either Jerry or I wouldn't be around much longer. Somehow I'm still here, lol.
    Cheers

  • Oroborous
    Joined:
    Like sands through the hourglass…

    Saw a few shows between Jan 79 and at the last one, 29 years ago tonight!
    Not sure I remember as much free stuff early on, more so over the years for sure.
    Same with the folks that Daverock described.
    Basically no hangers early on, but by the end the ratio was phuched, with too many posers and way too many people who came just to party, (or worse, bye/sell bad drugs,) wether for only Shakedown street or the show itself.
    All I can say is I’m glad there were no phones yet…these folks were clueless enough! And I try not to be prejudiced, but I will always unfortunately have an aversion to extremely unwashed dudes wearing nothing but a skirt…

    And I’m not singling out touchers either, as there were always plenty of nice new young people coming along who were really into the music and wanted to learn the ways and means from us veteran heads etc,
    No, these folks I speak of were not heads!
    I have younger cousins who came up then who saw hundreds of shows and ended up working in and around the organization that are nothing like the clueless hordes that overtook us.
    Unfortunately, the sudden popularity brought a literal explosion of too many and the wrong kind, to an all ready fragile environment that could in no way sustain itself. It saddens me all these years later to think back to it while it was happening, experientially. The thing you loved more than anything, slowly dying right in front of you and not much you could do.

    You could feel it building slowly through the eighties, probably similar to how my “generation” of heads noticeably grew and thus felt to originals during the late seventies success, but it hadn’t gotten too bad yet.
    85 was perhaps the peak of how big it could get and still be fun etc.
    And boy was it fun ; )
    I don’t recall it in 90 as much as Daverock describes—probably perspective, and after 87 which became so unbearable I skipped fall tour (that and the venues they now played because of the population explosion)—so maybe after 87, we were just desensitized and 90 didn’t seem so bad? I’m also positive the venues I was at in 90 helped a little.
    But then you could still have some choices…
    Luckily, I recall things did settle back somewhat, though never like when I started, or before I’m sure, and by the end it seemed completely ruined.
    Too many people, most of whom didn’t know or give too shits for us, our culture, our host places, (or even the music )we so lovingly tried to keep alive all those years.
    Popularity, this kiss of death, like that Eagles song, the last resort “call something paradise and kiss it goodbye”

    All these years later I’ve had a long time to reflect on it, and get better acquainted with the music of later era (91-95) shows. What I’ve found is, it wasn’t so much the music that turned me off near the end, it was the set and setting etc. I grumbled then because I wasn’t seeing what I wanted to see, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad. Just perspective…
    No, I now think where and how I experienced the Dead then had much more to do with my dwindling enthusiasm at the end.

    And I’m not talking about being electric, I mean in any psychoactive state or not, having to go to big, expensive cities with all they are, instead of kind small and/or awesome outta the way places like Maine, Roanoke, the Rocks or all the sweet little places: Greek, Frost etc Even Hampton BITD…
    Yeah, big, horrible venues in big horrible expensive cities, with uptight cops, overrun by selfish clueless rude wannabes, and worst of all, shitty sound!
    Although the dead’s legendary crew always did a damn fine job with what/where they were forced to work, let’s face it, sitting up on the side of a giant stadium hearing only half of an overly stereo mix if your an Audiofile tech is torture!
    We went to try to experience the MUSIC the best way we could, wether in the front row, or in front of the soundboard. Later, when GA unfortunately was not allowed, or only existent on the floor of huge stadiums, we’d just hope we could find a spot directly back but in the middle to try to get the best stereo sound we could under the circumstances, and hope some non DH regular civilian type concert goer didn’t show up half way through the first set and want “their” seats…
    Yep, I’ve loved the Dead probably more than is healthy lol, but getting in your thirties, and becoming a returning poor college student, having only horrible big crowded places to go to, it’s no wonder I wasn’t able to better grasp and enjoy the new music.
    Now, all these years removed, in the comfort of home etc, most of those negatively influential conditions and their memories are gone or smoothed over as age will do, and I’ve been able to finally get to know and really enjoy much of the later music. Im not suggesting that things weren’t changing musically too, just that I haven’t found things to be as dire as everyone seems to just off hand suggest.I blame that on the internet…
    But Add the setting changes, to the human practice of comparing now to “the glory days” and it’s perhaps too easy to just write it all off as undesirable.
    Im mean even if things hadn’t gotten so outta hand later on, it was never going to be the same for me as the early years in the front row, or say in 85 hanging out at the SB, just like that probably wouldn’t have felt the same to someone who experienced the music and scene ten years prior to me.
    As awesome as say front row Rochester in 1980 was, I’m sure it was nothing like hanging at the Fillmore west etc.
    So comparative experiences and personal change will always be an influential factor, but upon much further review, I’ve found the unfortunate changes popularity fostered a much bigger negative factor than just the music.
    I’ve said before, I’ll say it again, they should have taken another hiatus after Brent died! Or, if not then, after JG had the second health scare in 92.
    Sigh…
    Well, at least it was a Hellava run while it lasted!
    Singing, thank you, for a real good time!

  • Graceful_Dead
    Joined:
    Thanks DAVEROCK and question

    Your description of crowd behavior in days gone by is very interesting. I had a big gap in my show attendance, from later ‘70s to FTW 2015.

    I’m intrigued now by what seems more and more prevalent behavior:
    people walking around passing out stickers and other trinkets at no charge.

    How common was this in the 90’s?
    It may not have really gotten going until graphics arts software became widely available.

  • daverock
    Joined:
    1981 and 1990

    MKAV- they were great shows to be at, those in 1990, but I did sense a kind of disconnect, if that's the right word, between the people in the audience and those on the stage. The Deadheads at that time were quite domineering. Quite significant, perhaps, that the British press at the time spent as much time reviewing the band's following as they did the band itself. In a sense, the Deadheads, if that's what they were, became more of a media event than the band itself, and to some extent served as a misleading distraction. The behaviour of the crowd seemed incongruous with the music being played.
    We had to leave half way through the second night as my girlfriend couldn't stand it. It wasn't the music she objected to, it was the people in the audience pushing and shoving.

    It was very different at the two shows I saw in 1981, at The Rainbow in London. There was still plenty of dancing and high times of course, but it felt as though it was more in response to the music. In 1990 the music was more like a background to a party. In 1981 it was the party.

    Very subjective, all this of course! The first night at Wembley, 10/31/90 I was right at the front in the stalls, so there was less people between me and the band. Amazing watching Jerry so close, singing Black Peter. That couldn't have had the same impact if you were up in the balcony, where, if the following two nights were anything to go by, people could have been singing along. That first night was great - my favourite of the three.

  • mkav
    Joined:
    @DAVEROCK

    Sounds like you caught some good shows with some kind fans. Always talking, singing , dancing at Dead shows.
    I started going to Dead shows in 1975 (Legion of Mary)...I was probably median-aged at the show. Still attending, and I'm STILL median aged. It's amazing and wonderful how the various iterations continue to attract "youngsters" just hearing them, and to "oldsters" who still are hooked.
    I hope they won't fade away. In say, 10 years or less, there will be no original members left, but I'll bet the music will never stop.

    By the way: they were most definitely listening to AND feeling it.

  • mkav
    Joined:
    Sphere

    I'm counting on your being right about this. Going for one show: 8/9/24. Can't wait!

  • RoadTripper
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    Sphere

    go to the Sphere and you wont regret it. easy to say because we live in Nevada. it is worth whatever price you pay.

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The bus came by. We got on. That's how it all began. Almost as soon as the Fare Thee Well shows were announced, folks started planning to meet in Chicago. They met. They connected. Things were never the same. And now, further! Or maybe Furthur.
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teaches that the number of Deadheads is not static, but rather a dynamic number and as such, is unknowable.
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However, we may be dodging the more important question of "How many Dead Heads can twirl on the head of a pin?"
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just exactly perfect question
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"unknowable" is not unbounded. I am going to start the bidding at 250,000 (+1) (the RCF*) *rrrrgrrrr Correction Factor
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.....if you need the music and spirit every day to lead a happy life.....doesn`t matter if you have been to 1 , 100 or no shows at all.....
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'Mornin' Geoeclipticalenvelopmentmeister!Here're a few: Dark Star - Grateful Dead Sunshine Daydream - Grateful Dead Standing on the Moon - Grateful Dead Dark Hollow - Grateful Dead Here Comes Sunshine - Grateful Dead That Lucky Old Sun - Jerry Garcia Band; Brian Wilson Midnight Moonlight - Jerry Garcia Band Picasso Moon - Grateful Dead Mountains of the Moon - Grateful Dead Anthem of the Sun (album) - Grateful Dead And then there's: Blood of the Sun - Mountain Moon Struck One _ The Band Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine In - 5th Dimension Moonshadow - Cat Stevens Birthday of the Sun - Melanie Fat Old Sun - Pink Floyd Moon Turn the Tides - Hendrix Moon Song - America Dark Side of the Moon (album): Eclipse - Pink Floyd Here Comes the Sun - Beatles; Harrison; Havens Sun King - Beatles Moondance - Van Morrison For Yasgur's Farm (Who Am I But You & The Sun?) - Mountain Moonbeam Song - Harry Nilsson And You And I: CordOfLife>Eclipse>ThePreacherTheTeacher>Apocalypse - Yes My Only Sunshine (The Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine) - Beach Boys Bad Moon Rising - Creedence New Rising Sun - Jimi Hendrix Judgement Of The Moon And Stars - Joni Mitchell Sunshine of My Love - Cream Moonglow - Artie Shaw Tequila Sunrise - Eagles Flor d'Luna - Santana Sunshine Superman - Donovan Third Stone From The Sun - Hendrix Wake Up Sunshine - Chicago Who Loves the Sunshine - Velvet Underground You Are the Sunshine of My Life - Stevie Wonder Let The Sunshine In - Crowd at Woodstock
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That's some 2nd choice list!
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Dark Star by Grateful DeadFacts Total Plays 1101 times by 50 Artists From the release Live/Dead (Live) First Played in Concert December 13, 1967 by Grateful Dead at Shrine Auditorium, Los Angeles, CA, USA Most Recently Played August 9, 2017 by Gov’t Mule at Maine State Pier, Portland, ME, USA
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set the controls for the heart of the sun, pink floydcheap sunglasses, zztop
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You wear them Cheap Sunglasses you might get Arrested For Driving While Blind and lest we not forget Black Hole Sun Soundgarden
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Into The Sun by Grand Funk RailroadWaiting on a Sunny Day by the Boss btw IPA alert....Flying Monkey Brewery Barrie Ontario Canada....Juicy Ass IPA....a worthy brew....
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Forgot about that one! I'll look for flying monkey. Thanks
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Sunrise, on the Paul Kantner's Blows Againts the Empire
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Killer seats! Just take an inflatable raft and you'll be fine. And keep us posted. Onward!
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stay safe. Have an awesome show!
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Congrats on the kickass ducats. I'm sure the better half will have a blast. I saw the forecast and it's no joke. 15-20 inches of rain in Houston, hope DFW is spared a bit. Prayers to you and yours from da Buff....Remember when you load the arc take 2 of everything, dancing bears, twirlers, terrapins, dire wolves, cats, puppers, ravens, ahhhh you get the idea. Stay dry brother. Missing Jerry something aweful today....
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Most of the rain will be arriving Sat-Mon, and we are hauling our buns out of there early Saturday morning, along with probably half the population of the Houston metroplex. It's kinda fun, monitoring four twitter feeds, three websites, two weather channels and a soggy partridge inna pear tree for news. NRG stadium, site for the soiree, is being benevolent. They will let us bring umbrellas inside, but we gotta keep them closed. Anybody want a box of rain? Free, while supplies last.
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Glad the Stadium is allowing much needed shelter. Stay safe and dry if you can.
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1) Canoe2) Kayak 3) Extra Oars, and a call out to Jimmy and his pack-a-row 4) Life Preservers 5) Big shout-out to Neptune 6) The fickle finger of fate award to Harvey da Hurricane, 'cause... Bliss. Unpack. Show was just postponed. http://images.spaceref.com/news/2017/ooHurricane_Harvey.jpg Under that big blue blob just to the NE of the eye, is Houston, where the Coldplay crew is desperately packing up and loading out. When you can't even see the coastline, you know it's bad. Never mind the creeks rising, or the rivers, lakes, ponds and bays. This time, the ocean is rumbling and a rising storm surge, with all the boxes of rain in the gulf, is set to hammer that fair city. Harvey; not just an invisible rabbit anymore. Couch-tour commencing in DFW...prayers to those en-route or already onsite.
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good call by Coldplay, that storm is a monster, nothing worse than climbing steel in that crap
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At least you weren't en route. Good to see even Harvey can't dull your great attitude and sense of humor. Onward.
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The Titanic sails at dawn....and everybody's shouting which side are you on? Glad you bailed Georgie boy.... God does work in mysterious ways.... Stay safe, stay dry, hug those who matter most...and pet the rest.... (Coldplay is waaay overrated) ;-)
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Mayer and Sons Fall 2017 tour dates...Tickets go on sale beginning September 16th... preregister at Ticketmaster to get presale codes.... November 12 New York, NY – Madison Square Garden November 14 New York, NY – Madison Square Garden November 16 Philadelphia, PA – Wells Fargo Center November 17 Boston, MA – TD Garden November 21 Washington, DC – Verizon Center November 22 Hartford, CT – XL Center November 24 Detroit, MI – Little Caesars Arena November 25 Columbus, OH – Nationwide Arena November 28 Charlotte, NC – Spectrum Center November 29 Atlanta, GA – Philips Arena December 1 Dallas, TX – American Airlines Center December 2 Austin, TX – Frank Erwin Center December 5 New Orleans, LA – Smoothie King Center December 7 Orlando, FL – Amway Center December 8 Sunrise, FL – BB&T Center ASL and T, congrats on the home game, prayers and well wishes from the tribe, stay safe with Irma... Georgie boy....move over little dog, big dog's movin' in for a few days.... I can sleep in the shed....
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Fall D & CO Tour announced. Daydream Fall reunion, Dallas, Price of admission, who gave out the licorice at FTW 2015? Those who know, are in the know.
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ticketb*st*rd, WTF?? What happened to mail order? Must be tough to find a bot to mail all those requests. In their misguided efforts to "get the tickets directly in the hands of the fans" they now have the foxes guarding the henhouse. This is the same procedure employed for the Boss's run on broadway. Tickets were immediately on sale on stub hub for upwards of $6,000.00.
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Hey Mkav- preregister with the new ticketmaster verified fan site
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Just heard the posthumous Gregg Allman album Southern Blood in its entirety. What a fitting tribute to a vital part of music history.... https://youtu.be/DtJHGb5923Y RIP brothers Gregg, Duane, Berry, Butch and Lamar... it is worth a listen... now back to our regularly scheduled programming... To those affected by Irma....be well....
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Just as a friendly reminder, you all got one more day to get your yayas at Ticketmaster, get verified. Don't be like Bob, who missed out, be like Shirley, and jest: https://deadandco.tmverifiedfan.com/ I think you need to pick a city in the preregistration, so if you are going to multiple shows, register for each one separately Deadline is tomorrow. Presale is 9/12.
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Last night of the summer tour and first night of the fall tour. Call me a fan.
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luckily, The Ticketmaster Wheel didnt go flat. We're in for Dallas. what say ye?
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Well the joint was rockin' goin' round and round... just like the wheels on ba dus.... out on the road late at night, I see my pretty Alice in every headlight.... Alice, Dallas Alice.... Norton.... gonna pitch a wang dang doodle All night long....
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Smiles. No puppies were hurt during the wheel-a-thon.
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in! it was actually very painless for me...very happily surprised and grateful for that
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Sticking with the Indians then?Francona deserves another ring. I look at him and think he is made of horsehide
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yep...Indians have all the pieces. Last year they got to the last game of the WS with 3 healthy pitchers.. Klu-bot was worn out by game 7. They're all healthy this yr, knock on wood, so hopefully they get it done. Players and the city really seem to appreciate Francona, Now, if the BROWNS get a 21 game winning streak, that's a story!!!
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will get to spin the wheel today, as the masses queue up for Dead & Company tickets. Billie is busy sorting socks. He has priorities, you know. Public sale starts at 10 AM in whatever time zone your show is in. Don't be like Billie, and end up with a nice drawer of socks but no tickets. Be like Joe, be like Martha, give it a twirl, and smile, smile, smile.
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. .
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I have 2 extra tickets for Dead & Company’s Dallas show on 12/1/17. Not bad either: First Level, Section 117, Row K, Seats 1 & 2. You can have ‘em for face. Let me know this week if you think you’re interested. Onward!