Grateful Dead

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We're here trying to scare ourselves to death and you go and say something funny...

Seems like current events are on a comparatively small scale. On 13-14 March 1904, an article in the Quarterly Journal of Ornithology reported at least 750,000 migrating Lapland Longspurs were found dead in Worthington, Minnesota. Some were said to have flown against buildings, electric lights and wires, and others to have dashed themselves on frozen ground and ice. The dead birds were sprawled over 1,500 square miles. If that starts happening now on a regular basis, then I'll start to worry.

So F'ed up everywhere this winter that I wouldn't doubt that has something to do with this madness. "It's got no signs or dividing line and very few rules to guide"

I have been reading daily reports from the Jam Cruise ship, but I have not seen any mention of DEA actions beforehand. Living in a land where the (allegedly) evil weed is tolerated, if not totally legal, I fail to see the logic and mentality behind this sort of behaviour. Sadly in most countries it seems to be based on a political doctrine that has little to do with fact and more to do with perpetuating myths to ensure that, come the next election, the ill-informed electorate will return these politicians to their cosy positions of power.

How can a society have dumped that far into the toilet that such a thing could occur? A little girl f-ing died, and there is no excuse nor explanation for that. This insane rot-spewing of hate has got to stop!********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

by a 22 year old 'shooter', that this morning reportedly has connections to the American Renaissance movement which espouses anti-goverment, anti-immigrant, and anti-semetic views. 6 dead including a sitting Arizona chief justice, several elderly womena & men, a 9 year old girl, and a staffer from the wounded congresswoman's office. It has been confirmed that the congresswoman was the target at her 'meet and greet' event. 20 victims wounded or dead. Those who have called for 'second amendment remedies' or stated 'if we don't win by ballots, we can win by bullets' would be wise to reconsider the tenor of their comments. Such speech may have consequences, especially with zealots, criminals, terrorists (including McVey), especially if you add mental illness to the mix. Tragic all the way around. The Truth is realized in an instant, the act is practiced step by step.

why I don't pack up my kids and move back to the States.One reason (but not the only one) is that here, things happen, sure-they could get hit by a car or something; but it is a whole lot LESS likely that they'll run into a maniac waving a gun. ********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

this was an act of cowardice and makes no sense. The Congresswoman was liked and respected by both parties. Even the nuttiest "gun nuts" that I know wouldn't pull a stunt like this. These poor people were unarmed, threatening no-one, and innocent. Another senseless act of violence which served no purpose that a rational mind can comprehend. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families..

thing is crazy and saddens me right down to my socks!!!!

ripple!!!********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

spam face!!!!

offend any of my american brothers and sisters or anyone else at all, i understand this 2nd amendment but personally dont agree with guns or weapons of any discription whether i be for defence reasons or whatever elsepeace and love to all!!!!

agree that the tone and tenor of the debate in America would improveif threats or allusion to violence were eliminated from the discourse. From the right and the left alike. This link does call out the far right as currently several will known figures are currently denying that anyone has made threats and this issue is a fabrication of the media and the left. In this day and age, whatever people have said is 'on the record'. http://www.truth-out.org/the-wrath-fools-an-open-letter-to-far-right666… The Truth is realized in an instant, the act is practiced step by step.

I think these are very interesting questions that we should be asking: http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/david-sirota/33623/the-tucson-shoot… ********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

Tiger Lilly: I like the picture of our former president in the upper right corner. Gonz: If we outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns. To all: Peace on Earth & good will toward Man. Some of my Christmas cards say this. How can we learn and practice to be kind and more tolerant with each other?

Guns are only one of them. I'll be keeping mine thank you very much. But no offense taken if you don't agree. "It's got no signs or dividing line and very few rules to guide"

and should not have had access to firearms, or weapons in general for that matter. The signs were there, and while the people that knew him saw the signs, no-one did a damn thing about it, now many lives are ruined and changed forever, including his. That being said, I can respect the opinions of people that are against firearms, I just can't agree with them. As long as the government has access to weapons, the people need the same access. I need to be able to protect myself, my family, my property. When seconds count, the police are minutes away and who the hell trusts them? And as long as I fear my government (and i do) I'll keep my weapons. I also agree with marye...the blame game doesn't help one darn bit. Ted...you're right....how CAN we learn and practice more tolerance and kindness?

Not sure what it is, but something about that slogan has always made me cringe in the most inexpressible way. But yup, that's what it means: if you have a gun, we take it away from you and throw you in jail. Makes it easier to tell who the criminals are -- they're the ones with the guns! I grew up in a house with guns. My Dad used to be (no longer is) a hunter. I'm the first-born, so I got the bulk of the indoctrination. And actually, I LIKE shooting guns. There is some fun around that activity. But put me out hunting and give the chance to shoot something that's alive...that part didn't take. I couldn't do it, don't want to do it. And I have managed to survive to age 55 without owning a gun, without shooting a gun since my teens. Good for me. I'll continue to take my chances. I don't begrudge hunters and sports shooters and folks who think they need guns to protect them and theirs. I do have a Big problem with where we draw the line -- a shotgun in your home is going to be pretty damn effective for protection...much less worrying about that pesky aiming that you'd have to do with the adrenaline pumping through your veins when the moment comes. A Glock with a 30-round magazine? We need that? Guns don't kill people...but people with guns kill a LOT of people. Peace, friends. Condolences to all the victims of violence, regardless of the choice of weapon.

2008 Murders in the USA Total = 14,299 Methods used Firearms = 9,484 Knives and blades = 1,897 Blunt objects = 614 Personal weapons (= fists, boots etc.) = 861 Other (poisons, explosives, narcotics etc.) = 993 Source http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_pris… Lots of other statistics on that site yeah yeah I know the feds doctored the figures! Guncrime in the USA state by state: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state Yeah I know the Guardian is a left leaning newspaper so they probably made the figues up Murder rates per year per 100,000 population Mexico 15 USA 5 UK 1.28 France 1.6 Germany 0.86 Source: wikepedia yeah I know wikipedia is full of lies and is run by traitors, just like wikileaks

not stringent checks when buying guns there?

there are no stringent checks. Or at least what I saw on German news, there are no checks at all. Any deranged person can walk in to a shop, and out with a gun. Then take it to the grocery store with him, some restaurants, etc etc. In case the cabbages get out of hand, you know! ********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

in the US are subject to background check with NICS and are done at the point of purchase. There is a phone number that is called direct to the FBI. If there is nothing in the database the sale goes through.There are lengthy forms to be filled out with personal information that is kept on file by the shop. I have often seen the shop receive a "hold" and they are not allowed to proceed. This could be for any number of reasons, felony on record, restraining order, domestic violence, health issues, under age, etc. and the sale is on hold until the shop receives a go ahead. This can take up to 30 days. Furthermore, even if there is no record, you must have a concealed weapons permit (in the states that require them) to leave THAT DAY with a purchased handgun. If no permit, there is a waiting period. If someone had reported to the proper authorities that this young man had health issues, no sale would have been allowed. Criminals, however do not use federally licensed gun stores and so do not deal with these stringent regulations. They steal them or buy them stolen. Several thousand purchases are stopped daily by dealers that actually use the system in place and it is required by law to use this system.

then they are pretty much on the money, believe it or not, the feds don't generally doctor this kind of info. The criteria used to collect it is questionable, and other sources that use this information may distort it, but the info itself is pretty much true.

are even more stringent and include providing fingerprints and home of record for the last 10 years but go through the same database.

I think Badger was being sarcastic with the comments about his statistics pages :-)********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

you were wrong about permits in AZ http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_az.htm from Wikipedia: On April 16, 2010, governor Jan Brewer signed into law a bill that legalizes the carrying of concealed firearms and other weapons in most places without a permit for adults over 21 years of age. ********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

That guns are the most effective of killing tools. My point is take away ALL the guns in the world and the crazies will come up with a new method of destruction. Guns like automobiles require a high degree of responsibility to operate them. The goal is to never ever use it (except for hunting and target practice) but man like johnman says, if the day ever came (God forbid) where I needed it, I'll be glad I have one. I truely respect folks who hate guns, they are scary, but most gun owners are responsible and shouldn't be condemed. "It's got no signs or dividing line and very few rules to guide"

what is interesting from the chart in this article http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state is the huge variety from state to state. in some states folks seem to keep their guns responsibly, in others it gets scary...and by far the worst is District of Columbia!

Fire- arms murders as % of all murders US-67.07%... from the chart in CB's link Think that's fricking scary ********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

But the difference now-a-days is the general lack of respect between people. At its worst is the lack of respect for our gift of life. When I was growing up and going to elementary and hgh school, if you had a problem with someone you confronted them and at the worst you duked it out "after school under the flag pole on the black top" and that was usually the end of it. You would go home with a black eye and that was it. Even during a playground fist-fight, there was respect for life (i.e. no one pulling out a weapon). Now kids have decided to skip the confrontation part and go straight to the solution - bring a gun to school and shoot the place up (lack of repsect for other's life) and then turn the gun on themselves (lack of respect for own life). I don't know about you all but we had just as easy access to weapons back then as kids do now, maybe even more so, but no one ever pulled out a weapon back then. I just wonder and ask myself - when, how and why did we shift over to a state of such hopelessness that murder and suicide are the only solutions?? "It's got no signs or dividing line and very few rules to guide"

That's why I specified "states that require ". I am aware of AZ not having a requirement, Alaska, too...and i think maybe Vermont. But still, in order to make a purchase, a background check is required. In DC no one is allowed a permit (at least not regular folks like you and I) and until the supreme court decision, if you had a weapon in the house (in DC), it had to be disassembled, effectively making it useless, however, in the states where permits are allowed or where a permit is not required, crime percentage is perceptively lower than it is where criminals know that there is less chance of people fighting back. Unfortunately, this doesn't stop the random nutcase like the shooter in AZ, who, again, ruined the lives of innocents and himself. I wish this all wasn't necessary....wish we could all just listen to music and enjoy life...wish all the mean, greedy selfish people would just go the hell away.....I wish........

children should be given two cookies, and taught to share one, then, maybe, everyone would have a cookie and not have to steal someone else's cookie.....

Maybe the mean, greedy, selfish people will be the ones who disappear from the earth on May 21. We can only hope. IMHO, strict gun laws only work if they are universal in nature. As long as every state does its own thing, and that own thing varies as extremely as it does in the US, then anyone who wants a gun will be able to get one. That's painfully obvious. And...let's see. I look at it this way. And I'll carry the analogy to the extreme. 90,000-160,000 people died as a result of the US dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima during WWII. Is this just people killing people, or does maybe the potency of the weapon play some role in the results? If the nutcase in Tuscon had "just" a .38 revolver with a 5-round capacity in his hand as opposed to a Glock with a 30 round magazine, a lot less carnage would have ensued. So to get back to the extreme, if the potency of the weapon is irrelevant, then why are we all so hyped up over the prospects of Iran obtaining a nuke? That's what I'm referring to when I ask the question: where do we draw the line?

I totally agree about the ridiculously easy access the general public has to military/police-style guns can play a large roll in all this madness and helps make the situation much much worse. "It's got no signs or dividing line and very few rules to guide"

except that I firmly believe that the 2nd amendment is one of the checks and balances that the people have against a complete totalitarian government...so, another extreme....if the government has access, the people should have access. I still believe this is the main reason that the amendment was included in the bill of rights, without the 2nd, you may not have the 1st, or the 4th....and while I'm on the bill of rights...what's up with it now being illegal to film or tape police in the....ahem..."performance" of their duties?...........if the rapture DOES occur on May 21, I'm pretty sure the mean, greedy people will be left out since they are mostly likely the type that have warped and distorted Christ's teachings of loving one another, into hating those that are different.............can I have a cookie?

this doesn't bring back those innocent lives........nor heal the wounds......

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". I'm still one of those who get hung up on this wording. I've always read the "right" statement as referring to the "well regulated Militia," -- otherwise, why is the militia part there at all? My perhaps muddled understanding of this was that the individual colonies/states didn't have standing armies to protect themselves, so folks needed weapons in their possession in order to heed the call when a threat of force was brought to bear against the well-being of the "free State We aren't dealing with that today, and our current activist Supreme Court (how I love, as a liberal, to use that phrase in relation to a Conservative-dominated court) has ruled that I'm just plain wrong in my thinking. So throwing my interpretation out the window, the right to keep and bear Arms "shall not be infringed", given a lack of definition of the term "Arms", given a literal reading would mean to me that yes, I indeed do have the right to (getting back to the extreme) possess my own personal nuclear weapon. So this was the intent of the framers of the Constitution? But Johnman, I do like your checks and balances argument, for what it's worth. It's just apparent to me that the "intent" of the framers is unknown in this case, and given the advance in weaponry since its writing, probably irrelevant. Which leaves us where we are today: a country where the overwhelming majority of gun deaths are not related to defense of home and life, but to murder and accidents. Again, condolences to all who have suffered violence in their lives, whatever the source. And pass the cookies and beer -- I can use some right now.

but with all the books, CD's, video and audio tapes, DVD's and records I have...I dunno where I'd put the damn thing. I think the intent (and from what I have read) was that a militia, made up of citizens, was needed because a standing army was not wanted, for fear it could be used against the citizenry. And then, I'm reminded that all the OTHER amendments refer to the rights of INDIVIDUALS, so why wouldn't the 2nd? Another thing I think that needs to be addressed is the increasing number of violent criminals that are released from prison, while some poor schmuck who's only crime was smoking a little herb is kept locked up for God knows HOW long, while that rapist, or murderer, or armed robber, is out on the street, pulling his bullshit, and giving me cause to require an ability to defend myself...WTF?? Cookies and beer....I may have to indulge this evening, as the Mouse will be gone to Seattle to attend a...."formal" rave.....(yeah, I don't get it either), so Ben the dog and I will have the house to ourselves.... I've enjoyed this...rational discourse is so refreshing, rather than finger pointing and hate speech ...which BOTH sides are guilty of.....

I'm wondering now that I've publically (though facetiously and specifically to make a point) expressed my belief that I've got a right to a nuke (I think I can fit one in my garage if I move a car out)...has some secret gov't internet-spying keyword search now slid me into a "watch, potential terrorist" category? Another shudder. If I get strip-searched the next time I go through security in an airport, I guess I'll know. And I'm with you on who's in jail and who's not thought. If you weren't on the other side of the country, I'd stop on by to hoist a couple and continue the conversation. Happy Friday!

I'll drink a beer (well tonight) with ya and make a toast towards no more blood shed **clink**. Oh and wash it down with a little smokie tokie! Which may very well lead to some cookies =) Happy MLK weekend to everyone! "It's got no signs or dividing line and very few rules to guide"

these well thought out and politely stated discussion points. Dean's especially! Love you too Johnman, but I agree with gratefuldean :) About your Iraq nuke question (good one btw) the US is very big on "do as I say, not as I do" with regards to foreign policy. That would be my answer to that question. ********************************** I am not young enough to know everything. Oscar Wilde

One big reason I like hanging here is because we are on the side of respectful discourse, in spite of differing opinions...much too rare in the harsh world of the internet, and much more unfortunately, the "real" world as well. Plus the music, of course. Cookies too, though I'm hankering for cake right about now. Back to quoting Dylan (from my post on "what is a Deadhead") We always did feel the same, we just saw it from a different point of view...

Once they have served in the military (and I may be mistaken, but I think all males are required to do a coupla years service) they maintain the weapon they are issued. I recently saw a short news blurb/documentary kinda thing on this. Shooting sports are very big there, with whole families involved, from granny down to the older children. The two or three people they interviewed had their weapons, and their father's and grandfather's. I believe they created the Biathlon which entails cross country skiing and marksmanship skills and it is an Olympic event. The Swiss seem to be a pretty calm bunch, too....haven't heard about any nutcases there shooting up McDonalds or anything, that I am aware of. I expect it's all about respect, and being raised with respect..... Here's to more respectful and rational discussions...and ALOT more good music!!!

Innocent lives were lost, an elected representative that has the respect of both parties was seriously injured, responsible gun owners are vilified, a background check system didn't work....there are NO winners here.......