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I don't know, but I would doubt it for an obvious reason. Most people can readily and repeatedly distinguish a track played on vinyl from a cd quality 16/44.1 file. But, in every scientific study done so far, no one can distinguish hi res digital files from 16/44.1 files derived directly from that hi res file as the source. That basically says that any distortion in the audible frequencies caused by ultrasonic frequencies, while it may be measurable and visible on audio analysis equipment, can't really be audible enough to the human ear, because that would cause at least some people to distinguish hi res from 16/44.1 at least enough to be statistically significant. Since that has never happened in any of the scientific studies so far, that would indicate that any introduced distortion from ultrasonics on hi res playback is NOT similar in any way to the effect of the audio distortion from vinyl.

I was just curious because when I had said earlier that when I play "16/44 files through a expander(to put back those frequencies that were lost during compression)it sounds like a record." It does give it a fuzzy warm sound that you described. It also attenuates the upper mid-range and gives it wider sound-stage and is less ear fatiguing.

I'd love to check out one of those, I really enjoy trying new stuff out (new to me anyway). I've never even heard of them. How much do they cost, and what are they called (as in what would I look up)? Thanks. Edit: There isn't really any compression in a 16/44.1 file- not in the sense of mp3 compression and not in the sense of dynamic range compression on vinyl. The bit depth only accounts for the dynamic range (softest to loudest sound amplititude). 16 bits is enough to go from a low of about the sound of a light bulb a few meters away to the sound of a jackhammer a foot from your head. Frequency response is limited by the sampling rate, and with a rate of 44,100 samples per second, the file can encode frequencies from 20Hz to 22KHz and the digital to analog converter can completely reproduce the original sound wave with 100% accuracy within those frequencies. Since frequencies outside that range are not even encoded in the file, they are not a problem, and those frequencies lie outside the range of human hearing for almost all adults. So there really isn't any compression. It's as hi res as needed to reproduce any music, and will be forever.

It's built into the Marantz(sr7005)Receiver I am using. edit: The expander also gives me 5 or 6 more db of volume.

I'm going to see if I can find a standalone unit that does the same thing that can be added like any other component.

Check out the Sony HAP-Z1 Player. Nohing has reproduced my files as well as this thing, Truly amazing. Will only hold one Terabite of storage but, an external hard drve can be added. Great online tuner for internet radio as well,

That Hey Pocky Way second set opener in Hamilton 3/21/90 is smokin!!! A good lift up when you need it :) :) :)

Nice unit and it automatically expands compressed files. That's why is sounds so amazing.

At the risk of opening a hi-res can o' worms here, I wonder something. The science says subjects in well-designed studies cannot distinguish between CD-quality (16 bit) and higher res (24 bit) music. Are those subjects random dudes (and presumably ladies) off the street? Because it would be interesting if a sampling of trained audio engineers tried to hear the difference. I mean, I'm sure they have tried. I just wonder what the results would be if it were properly studied. I am guessing that folks who know what to listen for would hear differences. And ordinary "civilians" may not be able to distinguish this objectively, but they could still benefit subconsciously from a less harsh listening experience.

There are quite a few scientific studies done so far. I remember that one is from the Boson Audio Engineering Society, so you can look that one up. I believe they intentionally used a mix of self described audiophiles, professional audio engineers and other audio professionals, professional musicians, as well as "laymen" with no special audio credentials. This is by design. They used a cross section of ages, music preferences and even educational backgrounds. The methodology is described in detail. This is the kind of thing that makes a study "scientific", and difficult to reproduce at home.

Looking forward to receiving my High Resolution Pono player soon. Neil Young's brainchild.....go to ponomusic.force.com and check it out.

I love and respect Neil greatly. That said there are times when he's a bit weird/off/intense whatever. Even if I believed there were humans that could hear some benefit from his Pono (which I don't) a guy who's in his 70's been playing R&R all his life isn't one of them.

I finally got back into Spring 90 after heavy doses of Winterland 74/78 , and May/Fall 77. I'm working my way through the box and have reached some excellent tracks. These 4 are a great combo to end the first set. Jack-a-Roe : Masterpiece : Bird Song : Let if Grow

CD2 will not register in any cd player I've tried. Anyone else have this issue with this or any other Spring 90 disc?

Yes i had two disks that wouldn't play in my regular dvd player but worked fine in another dvd player, so i had put it down to a player issue. Haven't put into iTunes yet so hopefully the issue won't reappear when i am doing that. Forget which disks it happened on though.

I can hear a difference .... If I can Hear it Neil can..... The Dead were the Pioneers of HDCD and sound quality ..... Let It Grow

Pono I can hear it. In medicine it's called the placebo effect. That's OK If it works for you go for it

All my disks played fine. What a treat. I'm now checking out DP12, what an awesome Let it Grow! It has a little jam at the end that I vaguely remember, but have not heard for years.

I realize this is a minor quibble, but it would have been nice to have in the box a complete set list for all the shows to refer to. The book could have had this, or it could have been another page in the box.

I had a bit of glue on disk 1 of 3/28, I tried to gently clean it off, but it still skipped. About two weeks after contacting customer service I received a replacement. Thank you very much- your prompt and courteous service is greatly appreciated!

Highly compressed MP3 files sound terrible. turn those same files into FLAC files and they still sound terrible. Put them on iTunes and play them through your $30.000 sound system. same result.Putting thousands of shows through the compressed file ringer and then throwing away those master audience cassettes. soundboard reels,DAT masters etc... is / was a big mistake. Digital degeneration. Bummer. That being said, Neil and others aim to start with a master source and create a Hi Res reproduction. Not a mistake. I'm sure we all could hear a big difference. Concerning the pono player,its about the build quality of the device or component. ipod vs pono or Mcintosh vs Panasonic . I'm sure we all could hear a big difference

Check out this link for an interesting article about the effects of listening to those nasty, compressed MP3s: http://mic.com/articles/104250/what-the-internet-has-done-to-your-love-…

If you put mp3 on your ipod and lossless on pono of course there is a big difference. That's a specious argument. Unless you are 18 pono is Neil ' s pipe dream

I've got nothing.

Hi TN Dead, I think he might mean the following by that: There has been some debate here (and on a couple of other threads) whether Hi Res files make a difference, in the sense of whether anyone can really tell a difference between them and "regular res" for lack of a better term. But, THAT argument concerns "regular" meaning 16/44.1 (CD quality) files versus Hi Res (24/96 or 24/192), and that in that debate it is "Specious" to bring compressed files like MP3 into the argument because it appears many confuse the difference between MP3's and uncompressed files versus the difference between Hi Res and CD Quality files. There was actually one poster not long ago who stated he was a believer in Hi Res because once the difference was audibly pointed out to him between his MP3's and FLAC's he "realized" that Hi Res must be even better. THAT, I think, it was the previous poster meant by "Specious". As it turns out, every scientific study done to date done in a peer-reviewed way has never found a single individual who can actually hear the difference between "Hi Res" files and CD Quality files - even when including in the mix people who swear before hand that they can always hear how much better Hi Res sounds. Not One Person in peer-reviewed studies has ever fared better than 50-50 when comparing the two when the files start from the exact same masters. It turns out it's VERY difficult to do this at home. It has to be completely double-blind for one thing where neither YOU nor any assistants know which file is which until AFTER all the listening. Expectations produce such a HUGE placebo effect that in every peer-reviewed study (again), even when the testers surreptitiously use the EXACT SAME FILE (in other words lie that one is Hi Res and the other is CD Quality), if they allow the listener to "find out" which one Hi Res and which CD quality prior to hearing them, the listeners ALWAYS either say the "Hi Res" one sounds better or that they can't hear the difference; NEVER that the CD quality one sounds better (even though in this case they lied since they were just repeating the same file). You can google some of the studies done to date. I believe the Boston Society of Audio Engineers has done an extensive one, and there are many others done at various universities. The real issue is that most people misunderstand exactly what "Hi Res" files actually are. Hi Res refers to files that are 24 bit (or higher) and done at sampling rates of 96khz or 192khz. The bits refers to how many data bits are used to store each "sample", and the sampling rate is how often a sample is taken - 96khz means 96,000 times per second. It should be noted that NONE of this has anything to do with the terminology used in MP3 compressed files - they are completely irrelevant to the discussion. The Hi Res debate is about comparing those files to 16 bit 44.1 kHz UNCOMPRESSED CD Quality files (CD's use 16 bits and 44.1 kHz). The number of data bits used controls ONLY the dynamic range available to the recording. The more bits the more dynamic range, meaning that you can have more a difference between the softest and loudest sounds. It turns out that 16 bits is enough to go from a sound level of a light bulb several meters away from you (usually the noise floor of wherever you are listening to music is already louder than that), up to the sound level of a jackhammer a foot or so from your head. MUCH more dynamic range than, say, vinyl which would be equivalent to about an 11-bit recording. The sampling rate controls available frequency range that can be recorded. Most people misunderstand the nature of digital audio thinking that because the music is "sampled" in discrete intervals that the more samples the "smoother" the result. This is a misunderstanding. You don't ever get to hear the "samples". The digital to analog converter that the music runs through before it gets to your ears converts the digital information to a sound wave. And, as it turns out from the mathematics behind it all, as long as the sampling rate is at least twice the highest sound frequency you have recorded, then the digital to analog converter can, with 100% (literally) recreate the original smooth sound wave from the source EXACTLY. 44.1khz (44,100 times per second) is fast enough to encode sounds from 20hz to over 22khz. Human hearing, unless you're an infant (seriously) doesn't go beyond this range. So, a 16-bit 44.1khz recording is capable of reproducing music from the source perfectly and no more bits and no higher sampling rate is needed (and never will be) for LISTENING. It turns out that "Hi Res" has actually been around for decades. Where it is useful is in the RECORDING/MASTERING process, because during mastering the engineer may want to manipulate the sound in many ways. Each manipulation introduces "errors" which are cumulative. By STARTING with 24 bits (which inherently has enough dynamic range to LITERALLY make blood come pouring out of your ears if you actually had equipment that respond to highest level), the engineer has "playing room" so to speak to manipulate the recording and then will dither down to 16-bit for the final product. Again, the advantage to 24 bits is in the manipulation of the file. There is no advantage to the LISTENER between a 16-bit and 24-bit file Some people point to the superiority of DVD-Audio and SACD. That is also "specious" because in almost EVERY case, the DVD-Audio discs are made from different (and superior) masters, while SACD is actually a completely different technology (can't go into that one right now), but again are almost always from different masters than the CD releases. To properly compare CD quality audio files to 24/96 files you need to START WITH THE EXACT SAME FILE and then just dither the 24/96 file down to 16/44.1. That is what has been done in the double-blind studies, and not one human being EVER has gotten statistically better than a coin toss trying to distinguish the one from the other, even folks who swear by hi res. Most of these studies involve large numbers of individuals where they purposely get a sampling of audio professionals (audio engineers, musicians, etc.,) laymen who consider themselves audiophiles, as well as a mix of people who don't consider themselves audiophiles. THEN, they listen in a controlled double-blind environment and most of the studies purposely use equipment that ranges from the VERY high end down to the VERY cheap. They account for other variables like using a large range of ages, different types of music, etc. None has ever fared better than a coin toss in this environment. But, you still have folks who swear "I checked, and Hi Res is so much better, man!". If you read some of the studies you will realize how hard it is to do the testing on your own without biasing the test. The reason this all came about is that, like I said, Hi Res has been around for decades, but no one every called it that. It was the resolution used by audio professionals during the mastering phases of producing product for consumers which was converted to CD quality files to put on CD's for general release. Many in the industry recently realized the money potential in convincing people that the hi res files actually SOUND better - people will pay more for the files AND there's all that new equipment to sell. Many people don't even buy music anymore, and many of those that do already have all the CD's they were ever going to buy. By using a new format "hi rez" they can get younger people to pay more, and get older pay to pay again for music they already own. They realized that they can also exploit the fact that very few people really understand digital music technology and will believe that if CD quality files sound better than MP3 compressed files (They do!) then Hi Res files MUST sound better than CD Quality files. In fact, many hi res files DO sound better because the masters used in the original CD quality files suck so bad, and they do a better job mastering before making the Hi Res files. Obviously the real solution is just to master the original music content to the highest standards TO BEGIN WITH. Again, if you start from the same masters, and then just make a Hi Res file and a CD quality file from that same master - NO ONE has been found who can really tell the difference. There will ALWAYS be people who read the marketing garbage and will repeat things like "even though CD quality covers the whole range of human hearing ability, the higher frequencies you can't hear create harmonics that only Hi Res files can store" and stuff like that. But IT ALL COMES DOWN TO, if people can't really HEAR a difference in every controlled study, then there is no difference to YOU THE CONSUMER. There's nothing WRONG with the hi-res files. But, paying more for them, or thinking you're getting better sounding files because there's more bits or a higher sampling rate, is just silly. In light of that, it makes SO much more sense to spend your extra money on BETTER SOUND REPRODUCTION EQUIPMENT - speakers, system, etc. Beyond that, you're just tossing money at a ploy.

Thanks for the education. I mean that.In my previous Specious post, the bottom line was comparing devices not files - pono vs Ipod. Is it a specious argument that a different device or component will reproduce sound with superiority over another ? Will the pono reproduce sound with greater SQ than my Iphone 6 with the same file in playback ? Are the components used focused on audiophile quality sound reproduction ? Many are critical of Neal Young's pono prior to investigation. Are they the former lovers of Daryl Hannah ? Neal Young is not an electronics engineer or designer. Charles Hansen of Ayre Acoustics is. The pono device is Hansen's brainchild funded by Young. Will the pono player prove to be a portable audiophile device that reproduces any file with transparency, accuracy, as well as an analog warmth that other players lack. Now that they are being delivered to mailboxes worldwide,we shall see. Or hear rather. Specious indeed. Rock on my fellow Deadheads !! PEACE Thanks again for your post wjonjd. It puts a lot in perspective for me.

I haven't looked into the technical specs of the Pono yet, but it would certainly make a difference if they used top of the line components/electronics compared to other devices. For instance, the quality of the built in DAC. If the unit then still allows you to play 16/44.1 files and not just 24/96 and 24/192 files, then it should offer an audible improvement over products that use cheaper components without forcing you into hi res. I will be interested in looking into the pono details - haven't had the time yet. As far as analog warmth, I have yet to hear anything other than vinyl that gives me that. Even though LP's only provide the equivalent of about 11-bit dynamic range, I believe what I've read about the reason for the "warmth", the subtle distortion produced by any sound reproduction medium that requires contact with the medium - distortion from the needle, pressure on the tone arm, etc. Whatever the reason behind what causes it, I think it's largely irreproducible from digital media (unless they digitally record an LP playback! :) Digital files are actually much more accurate to the master recording, have no need of dynamic compression, are clearer, etc. But, there is just something about that LP sound. Maybe it's just nostalgia on my part.

I still Love LPs. My Nakamichi DRAGON sounds pretty warm to me.Maybe it's just my nostalgia. Then again,maybe not.:)

I'm glad you continue to speak out on the whole hi-res file marketing scam. I've tried to do the same here in the past, but you definitely have a talent for explaining it in a more accessible, and diplomatic manner. One good thing I see in Neil Young's Pono service is the promise of greater availability of CD-quality FLAC downloads. That should really be the standard in purchased music downloads, and anything that moves us away from buying MP3s is a step in the right direction.

I realized after the fact that every time I referred to uncompressed CD quality files I should have referred instead to lossless CD quality files, as some might not get it that FLACs and SHNs are digitally identical to the uncompressed wav files at playback. I agree about the need for greater availability of lossless downloads. It drives me batshit that iTunes doesn't offer FLAC, and even most sites that have the largest selection of classical music still only offer mp3's. You would think that classical music places would be the first places to realize the demand for lossless download purchases, but I guess not. I create my own high quality mp3's so that I can fit my entire music library on several 160GB portable devices, but I like to have the originals on my home playback library.

I suspect that this is based in some degree on the fact that Neil can be a rather abrasive personality and people will take shots at him when they can. There is also probably a bit of a reflexive distaste for the pricing and kickstarter campaign that came with the pono rollout. As we see here often, any time a product is priced above what a kind veggie burrito cost in the lots at SPAC 1985, people bitch and moan.

It's partly my fault this board has digressed into a long discussion about digital audio. Sorry about that. But I must say (at least) one more thing. Saying that bit depth only affects dynamic range is way off the mark. Bit depth is the number of values available for each digital sample of the waveform. So the granularity (resolution) of the sound is dependent on bit depth. Sure, it ends up as a sound wave by the time it reaches your ears, but the shape of the wave is modified by digitizing it. Take the logic to the extreme. If you could have a 2 bit recording, each sample could only be assigned to one of 4 values. Imagine how raw that would sound. The number of available values is the number 2 raised to the power of the bit depth. So, an 8 bit recording has a "granularity" of 256 available values per sample. A 16 bit recording has 65,536 available values per sample and at that point is getting quite a bit more resolved. A 24 bit recording has 16,777,216 available values per sample and is thus 256 times more resolved than 16 bit. I'm not saying everyone can hear the difference between 16 and 24 bit. But people can certainly hear 8 bit vs 16 bit. So some people - maybe not enough to statistically skew the even odds stats - probably can hear 16 vs 24. I can tell you from my experience that my analog studio tape machine sounds noticeably better than my high-end 24 bit digital recorder with excellent AD and DA converters. And anything that approaches analog by providing higher resolution is a move in the right direction, even if Neil Young is a grumpy old man having a mid-life crisis about 2 decades late.

Hi One Man, Respectfully (seriously), there are too many factual errors and misunderstandings about digital audio technology in your post to reply without writing another tome. I will instead point you to some links that explain some of it. http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html http://lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-sampling-theory.pdf http://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/news/15121729-audio-myth-24-bit-audio-h… http://productionadvice.co.uk/no-stair-steps-in-digital-audio/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded In particular your understanding of the relationship between how digital audio technology works, and what you are referring to as "granularity" is simply incorrect, but conforms to "common sense" in the sense of how most people believe digital audio works. If you're interested in the topic I would suggest reading those links in their entirety (I believe they have references to many other locations for further information as well). Taken together, I think these go a long ways to a good explanation of some things that are not intuitively obvious, things like, from that last link: "So, 24bit does add more 'resolution' compared to 16bit but this added resolution doesn't mean higher quality, it just means we can encode a larger dynamic range. This is the misunderstanding made by many. There are no extra magical properties, nothing which the science does not understand or cannot measure. The only difference between 16bit and 24bit is 48dB of dynamic range (8bits x 6dB = 48dB) and nothing else. This is not a question for interpretation or opinion, it is the provable, undisputed logical mathematics which underpins the very existence of digital audio." You will also see, as explained in the article on bit-depth, that each "sample" as represented by a 16-bit (or 24-bit or 2-bit) binary number ONLY encodes the amplitude (volume) of the signal. Frequency is controlled ENTIRELY by sampling rate. When you have a particular "volume" measurement played back 1000 times a second, you get a sound frequency of 1000hz at the volume specified. It's easier if you think of each "sample" as encoding a virtually instantaneous "tick" sound where the number of bits controls only the volume of the tick. How fast the ticks are made produces a tone. While it is true that 16-bit encodes 65,536 different possible numbers, and 24-bit encodes 16,777,216 different numbers, the granularity you refer to I don't think is granularity as you believed it to mean. The difference between 65,536 and 16,777,216 is ONLY the difference of how many VOLUME levels can be encoded. While there is some controversy over whether frequencies over human hearing can affect what we hear (there shouldn't be), there is no controversy that no one can detect the difference in volumes from one level to the very next at the granularity level of either 16-bit or 24-bit, so their "smoothness" is identical to human hearing. For instance, LP's are the equivalent of about 11-bit recordings (they have to compress the dynamic levels so the lowest volume to loudest fits within this range due to the limitation in groove/needle technology). Assuming with the most modern technology, the newest LP's can be equivalent to 12-bit (and I have no reason to think this, but let's assume they've improved), that means LP's as you knew them had a "granularity" of about 2,048 volume levels with newer ones MAYBE having up to 4,096. I don't think the "granularity" of 65,536 is a problem and certainly NOT distinguishable from 16,777,216.

Thank you for the links. The common caveat seems to be "if properly dithered". I am sure I have heard many digital recordings that lacked proper dithering (or other treatment) because they sounded obviously harsh. So we can't necessarily assume we are always talking about properly dithered recordings. Some sound terrible and it is clearly a digital issue as you don't hear analog recordings sounding this way (although they can obviously have their own problems). Also, John Siau says in his article, "Long word lengths do not improve the amplitude "resolution" of digital systems, they only improve the noise performance. But, noise can mask low-level musical details, so please do not underestimate the importance of a low-noise audio system." So if 16/44.1 is "good enough", it is just barely "good enough" and sometimes probably isn't. So why not go 24/96 from here on out? We will never need to go higher than that. Relating this to the Grateful Dead, the release "Formerly the Warlocks" sounds terrible to me, and I am nearly certain this is a digital issue. I have never heard an analog recording that lacked this much "depth" and sounded this harsh. By "depth" I am not talking about dynamic range nor frequency range. There is something missing throughout the signal. I can't measure my dissatisfaction with this recording -- all I have for instruments are my ears. But I am sure some other listeners hear what I hear in this recording. I'm not blaming it on 16/44.1. I am blaming it on poor digital engineering of some kind.

I'm not sure what to say. While the Warlocks sound has issues, are they mastering issues? Mixing issues? One thing we know is that it is not a 16/44.1 vs 24/96 issue. We know that that is not the problem. In the tests (talked about in one of the links) where they did a double blind test where they inserted a 16.44.1 loop, they didn't even bother dithering. Dithering is NOT the issue. It moves quantisation error/noise into the mostly inaudible regions of the frequency range. Part of the problem is that by asking, "So why not go 24/96 from here on out?", it's like hearing someone listen to a snake-oil pitch - snake-oil that won't do any harm, but costs major bucks and for which an entire industry is ready to sell you lots more of it and lots of extremely expensive accessories to go with it. You're asking, what's the harm? And, part of the ability for them to do that is predicated on people having the same preconceptions and and misunderstandings about digital audio that were in your original post - believing in things like "granularity", a "smoother" sound because you have more discrete samples (probably the most frequently heard misunderstanding), greater "depth" to the recording because you have more bit-depth (COMPLETELY off), the idea it is closer to analog, the idea of that what you get is a "stair-step" sound wave and having more samples makes for more steps, and smoother sound wave, etc. Even many audio professionals who don't deal directly with the technical aspects of how the files work buy into this demonstrably nonsensical understanding of what is going on - and this is CRITICAL for the people who want to take your money unnecessarily (many of them probably belive it too). As long as there are folks bringing up ambiguity (similar to "the snake oil coulnd't HURT), as long folks repeat nonsense like "well, the extra frequency range in 96khz recordings may not be in the audible range, but the harmonics created by those frequencies probably affect the way the music FEELS". If that were true IN ANY WAY the double blind tests would fail - people would be able to pick out the difference. In any case, the train's probably already left the station. The idea of "high resolution" is probably already too firmly entrenched, and I expect many people will buy into it. I guess there are worse things, but the snake-oil thing drives me batshit. P.S. Edit - I recently found out that, contrary to what I implied in an earlier post, unlike in the early years of digital audio, modern DAC's (digital to audio converters), even the most inexpensive ones are virtually perfect. There is no longer really any such thing as a "better" or "higher quality" DAC. They all virtually perfectly reproduce an analog sound wave that is identical to the original.

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree on the "snake oil" issue. If 24 bit has demonstrably lower noise, it's not snake oil, even if subjects in a double blind test can't "hear" it. The effect of audio on humans can only be measured to a certain degree. The rest -- call it "feelings" if you must -- is in the ear and brain of the beholder. Do frequencies (including noise purposely placed) outside the audible range change our reaction to music? I don't know, and no test can prove there is no effect. I'm sure that Warlocks box "sounds" great on paper. It apparently met whatever specs were used to produce it. I prefer engineering that errs on the side of quality. I want digital audio to go a step beyond the old 16/44.1 design, and now it is going there. And it is unlikely to go further in that direction, if that is any consolation to anyone thinking this will never end.

"Do frequencies (including noise purposely placed) outside the audible range change our reaction to music?" People keep missing the point that even if it's just feelings or some unquantifiable non-auditory affect, if it made ANY difference - even one you couldn't put your finger on, that would SHOW UP on the results of the double blind test. Scientifically (as far I'm concerned) they've proven that there is nothing, not even something inaudible or even supernatural, that is making a difference, or the results would be different. As far as noise, it is the EXACT same issue. Scientifically, any added noise from dithering should be inaudible unless you have a noise floor about zero, which never happens. And again, exactly as before, if it made ANY detectable difference it would skew the results of the double-blind studies - which clearly it did not; that speaks for itself. Yes, we can agree to disagree. I prefer engineering that errs on the side of not intentionally trying to take advantage of the less technically informed for a buck. And I also disagree with the characterization that this is going a "step beyond" and what it implies. You are repeating things like "demonstrably greater noise" while ignoring that noise you can't hear isn't really noise. If snake oil makes someone feel a little better it NEVER changes the original intent behind the making of that snake oil, and never will. Unfortunately, this is precisely the kind of disagreement, discussion and outcome that the folks who ARE aware of the science behind digital audio technology and are trying to capitalize on it are counting on. They have to. But, like I said, it's not my money and there are much more important things to worry about. For what it is worth, if you do spend your extra money on "hi res" files and equipment and storage space and download times, etc., I do hope you enjoy them. Especially if it's Jerry! EDIT - And, doesn't it bother you AT ALL that in the marketing on places like HDTracks and other Hi-Res sites, they are intentionally misleading. While you, after reading some of the science, have realized that the "smoothness" issue, and the "stair step" issue are bogus, even if you don't seem to see the same with the "noise" issue, it is simply fact, not opinion that there is no "stair-step" issue, but if you go look, that is precisely the kind of material using graphs, etc., that they use in their marketing. In other words, they are using something that, regardless of how you feel about so called hi-res audio files, is entirely scientifically bogus - you can see on audio sound analyzers that the music/sound waves that are produced are as smooth and identical to the originals, but these sites display graphs showing stair steps of rectangular discreet "samples" and showing more samples making a sound wave smoother, using words like giving the music a more "natural" less digital "feel" (demonstrably false). Doesn't this kind of marketing TELL you anything about what is going on??? And, in light of that, when you refer to how we don't understand everything about how humans/the brain respond to this or that, are you implying that they might be right BY ACCIDENT, that even though they're clearly intentionally lying to their buyers about much, that COINCIDENTALLY they might be selling a higher quality product?? Not buying it. I'm with the Society of Audio Engineers on this one. EDIT 2 - And, while you're talking about the (as far as I'm concerned illusory) intangible but maybe real and subtle differences, doesn't it bother you to read about the legions of people out there are who buy these hi-res files and then post about how they're SO MUCH better, you can just hear how much deeper the sound is, the cymbals are so much crisper (that would be in the AUDIBLE frequency range), the sound is so much smoother, you HAVE TO experience it for yourself! You now know how much of that is simply not factually possible (other than in the mind due to expectations), but you can still stand behind this? Sorry, I can't, I just can't. EDIT 3 - I thought of something else, too. While you appear willing to overlook the most glaring falsehoods being perpetrated on the off-chance that the "hi res" MIGHT offer some virtually intangible benefits, you appear completely ready to ignore things like the quote from the first link I sent which reads "Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space." He goes on to explain why, and I believe at least one of the other articles mentions it also - if not, I know you can find ones that do. The reasons for the slight inferiority, which have to do with the potential affects of inaudible frequencies attempted to be reproduced by sound equipment whereby the actually AUDIBLE frequencies are interfered with (something that wouldn't happen from listening to live music, like a guitar, but DOES happen due to the inherent inadequacies of speakers and headphones of whatever quality) - you seem to be perfectly willing to just ignore any negative (and in this case demonstrable) affects of using playback files that store frequencies that are not just a little but astronomically above human hearing level. Again, to quote "Neither audio transducers nor power amplifiers are free of distortion, and distortion tends to increase rapidly at the lowest and highest frequencies. If the same transducer reproduces ultrasonics along with audible content, any nonlinearity will shift some of the ultrasonic content down into the audible range as an uncontrolled spray of intermodulation distortion products covering the entire audible spectrum. Nonlinearity in a power amplifier will produce the same effect. The effect is very slight, but listening tests have confirmed that both effects can be audible." Also being ignored are the fact that virtually no microphones (certainly none in use commercially) are even capable of picking up these frequencies to begin with, so ANY frequencies in that range ARE noise introduced as part of the digital file manipulation phases, which 16/44.1 files would simply lop off, but are still contained in a 96 or 192khz file? The list goes on and on and on. And, for me, I just will never get over the INTENTIONALITY of the original deception for the sake of greed, and how it has now spilled over into otherwise well-intentioned, but misguided supporters. EDIT 4 - the argument also reminds me of psychic pay per minute phone lines. It's like hearing an argument from people who spend a few hundred dollars a month on these psychic hotlines explaining that we don't know all the capabilities of the human mind. No, we don't. Does that make it one scintilla more likely that the "psychics" on the other end of the $2.00 per minute phone call are anything but frauds? Nope. And the fact that people can and do legitimately bring up our lack of complete understanding of the capabilities of the human mind muddies the waters and gives some reasonable semblance of credence to these frauds drives me similarly batshit.

I wish Owsley Stanley were still alive to debate this. He said to me that digital audio (all of it) is "a bad joke" and I tend to agree as far as in comparison to analog. The day I plugged in my (24 bit/48K) multitrack in place of my old Otari MX-70 (1-inch 16-track analog magnetic tape) was the day my studio began sounding less warm and snuggly. Of course, there are a million reasons why this is true, none of which are likely to be cured by "better" digital audio technology. I'm sure someone has tried to invent a tape emulation algorithm and I don't see that gaining any traction. That aside, virtually all professional studios use 24 bit recording, even knowing the product will end up as 16 bit. I have the choice but have never used 16 bit multitrack. Maybe I'll try that. It won't be double blind, but it could be revealing if I use a MIDI source, drum machine and/or other "pre-recorded" sources so there will not be any performance cues. I could even transfer a song from an old LP and hear it both ways. I'll report back with results. I am not down with false marketing of 24-bit audio. The science should not be tampered with to make a buck. PONO makers and the like should just explain what they have done and see what the market will bear. I don't plan to buy one, but I could change my mind.

You COULD do it double blind. But, you HAVE to make sure you start with the same files. Take your 24/96 or whatever file, have it professionally converted to 16-bit. Don't just get separate files to start with. Even very slight differences in volume will make a difference (louder is almost always reported as better in testing). Then get someone to help with the a/b testing. Ideally, you should NOT be able to see the other individual, and it would better if he didn't even talk if he is going to know which is which; to keep it double blind he nor you should know which is 24 and which is 16 until after all testing. Try to take no less than 100 listens. Use equipment to make sure volume level is truly identical, not the volume setting of the playback equipment, but the volume of the playback itself. And, of course, he shouldn't just switch back from one to the other. Use a random number generator to determine the order of which files to playback in what order. Ideally, you should check both files with visual analysis software so that you can really see if the conversion to 16 bit was done well. The sine wave results should be virtually indistinguishable in amplitude when overlayed. The only real visual dupifference you should be able to see would be possible content in frequency ranges above 22khz in the hi res file that wouldn't exist in the 16/44.1 file. If this is not the case you're not comparing apples to apples and the test won't mean anything. P.S professionals use 24 bit recording for reasons that have nothing to do audio quality of the listening experience of those files. It has to do with the playing room it gives for subsequent digital manipulation. I think one of the articles I linked to talks about this.

i'm personally not hip to this kinda stuff, but a good friend & fellow Head showed me the list of nominees for Best Limited Edition Boxset (or something like that) & THIS BOXSET WAS ON THE LIST, so again, CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE INVOLVED IN MAKING THIS HAPPEN, ON THE GRAMMY NOMINATION!!! ♤

So this morning I transferred the studio version of "Candyman" from a previously-unplayed vinyl LP copy of American Beauty to two digital files -- one in 24 bit/96k and one in 16 bit/44.1. The levels for both were precisely the same (I didn't even touch any of the input controls other than switching file formats) and I trimmed the top of each file so the audio wave started at the same time. Of course, I cheated while doing this and listened to parts of each file. I thought man, this is going to be easy. The 24/96 file sounded so airy on top and rich and clear throughout, and the 16/44.1 not so much. Then I talked my wife into playing the first verse and chorus of each file randomly, using a random number generator to decide which one to play. We repeated the test 25 times, listening first on studio monitors, then on one pair of headphones, then another. I correctly identified the file format less than half the time. Sometimes I felt sure I had it right but this was not an indicator of success. I failed. I cannot hear the difference. This is not to say no one can. I still believe it is possible for younger, less damaged ears to distinguish the difference. I will try it on some other folks when they visit. But I won't be buying a PONO, since my iPhone plays lossless files and they sound great. I'm still rooting for old Neil, but he has some 'splaining to do. Interesting sidebar -- I discovered some audio feedback in the intro of the song I'd never noticed before, along with an unintelligible human voice shouting something. These were plenty audible on both file formats.

I once tried a similar test.My friends all drank Bud. So I bought some Bud and some Busch, and did the Pepsi challenge so to say. To my surprise, the majority picked the Busch and said they were sure it was the Bud! The lesson we learned? Buy Busch when playing quarters! But now I will spring for the good booze, cause Everybody can tell, and the headaches arnt worth it Glad with my iPod, I remain.......Bobaloo

Thanks for taking the time to test using meticulous methodology, and reporting back results whichever way it went. Obviously, I'm still confused by the statement "I still believe it is possible for younger, less damaged ears to distinguish the difference." That's why understanding the science behind this is so important. What would younger less damaged ears have that would enable them to distinguish the difference more readily? An ability to hear frequencies over the 22khz that 44.1khz digital audio files already encode perfectly without encoding frequencies above that? Not unless they're infants. An ability to distinguish gradations of volume more finely than 65,536 gradations of amplitude? LP's, because of required dynamic compression, and analog tape because of inherent tape hiss causing a much higher noise floor, already have far less dynamic range than a 16-bit digital audio file. In other words, exactly what do you think is in files that use more than 16-bits and and higher sampling frequency than 44,100 times per second, that these younger less damaged ears would pick up??? When choosing the original CD standard, they specifically looked to the science to determine the minimum specs required to reproduce audio at the frequency and dynamic range limits that completely covers the abilities of human hearing (see my caveat about dynamic range below). Going beyond this was a waste of precious space (at the time), while not going this far would not provide maximum audio quality. No one disputed the usefulness of recording at higher bit rates and sampling frequencies for the purposes of digital manipulation of audio files, which was already standard. Again, what is it in 24-bit files or 96mhz or 192mhz files that you think younger ears could hear that is not completely contained in 16-bit 44.1mhz files? That's what I'm not getting. What is the difference between ignoring what the science says about how this works, and the assumptions made by people who don't understand the logical fallacy in stating that since flac is better than MP3, hi-res flac must be even better? Edit - it is possible someone will point out that my statement that 16-bits can encode the same dynamic range as the dynamic range capabilities of human hearing, is not strictly accurate. But, the point is moot, as no recording of music requires the full range. As stated, 16 bits already covers FAR more dyanamic range than LP OR analog magnetic tape. If you tried to record the sound of a slight breeze juxtaposed against the sound of a cannon with a microphone in the barrel, 16-bits would fall slightly short. BUT, of course this is NOT the argument hi-res proponents espouse. They refer to the actual music that people listen to every day, from jazz to hip hop to rock to whatever. It is recordings of THAT they believe derives some benefit, and the dynamic range of all of those are more than contained in 16-bits (way more than). So, for all practical purposes, the dynamic range issue is moot. Additionally, it's ironic that many of the proponents of hi res are also analog aficionados, where the dynamic range is TRULY impaired. Not all of them, of course. There are many lovers of analog who are also aware of its limitations and distortions, and are aware that digital audio is a more accurate and clear reproduction of the original sounds that were recorded; it is the specific and unique nature of the sound of the analog media themselves we have developed a love for.

I'm sure I can't hear the difference. I'm not sure no one can. I'm not ignoring anything -- I'm actively participating. There is another side to this that I want to explore (and NOT ignore). I'm not convinced there is absolutely nothing to the claim that 24 bit has merit. I may come to believe that eventually, and Jon you certainly have done more than your share to try to push me in that direction. But it ain't over for me yet. I know several people in the pro recording world and I want to hear what they have to say. Other 24 bit proponents may have evidence or counterarguments I have not heard. And I want to test some other listeners here at home. I'm not advocating this, but maybe a listener high on hallucinogens would have a different perspective.

Your last suggestion - I would be VERY interested in the outcome of such a test. I would no longer be able to be a participant in such a test (at this point in my life, anything in my subconscious is STAYING THERE.). But, that would be a very interesting test ;). I used to, and maybe still do, subscribe to the belief in vast and undiscovered powers of the human mind which psychedelics tap into. It actually wouldn't surprise me either way.

Hi OneMan,I do realize you're NOT ignoring anything, and I DO appreciate the lengths to which you are going to investigate this. Please let me know if/when you get additional feedback from other sources. Thanks OneMan.

You make an excellent point about Neil and how many people have reacted to him over the years due to personality and I would add his willingness to go his own way no matter what people think. I would add the point that geniuses are rarely nice people. 2 others I can think of in the music field are Dylan and Zappa. All 3 go their own ways and it takes time for many to catch up. But those that do are I think amply rewarded. For my money Zappa is highest on the scale that would be musically and following my reasoning being the biggest a$£#%^e at times. I don't need to be buddies with my musical heroes I just want to love the music. As to the specific item under discussion. .. Neil ' s Pono in this case I think he is unrealistic but hey even genius isn't right all the time. Hell if I play Zappa for someone I have to be careful especially with the live stuff. He can be beyond crude especially about women at times. That said to those who won't listen to him because of that, they are missing out on some of the best music of the 20th century

I'm old school but I can most definitely hear the difference in my old analog lp's over any digital recording. There is no way, in my opinion and thru my ears, that a light reading 0's and 1's can possibly reproduce the same rich, warm feeling and sound coming from a vinyl recording. Nothing beats the needle in the groove. I have tried this experiment in the past, even comparing a first press lp to a MFSL gold cd, there is no comparison, the vinyl sounds better, there are a lot of very low frequencies and high frequencies that are lost in the transfer. The cost of vinyl is more, but it is worth it if you like to listen to "all" the music. When I'm just using music as background, the digital is ok, but when I want to really listen to the music, it's analog all the way.

Unkle Sam - Obviously, people know what they like, and I prefer the sound of LP's myself. But science, the same science that allows radio waves to be transmitted and received (and analyzed) and developed the LP in the first place, confirms that you are making the logical mistake of going from "this sounds better to me" to "this has all the music and is closer to the original compared to the other", when simple sound alaysis equipment verifies that the exact opposite is true. Many theories exist for why many people prefer LP with the most common being that the "warmth" comes from the inevitable distortion caused by physical contact and the always imperfect nature of never flat physical media, never perfect needle, never zero pressure on the tone arm, never perfectly consistent rotation speed, etc., all adding up to significant distortion from the original recorded sound. In addition, you actually SEE on analysis equipment the drastically reduced dynamic range on the LP. This compressed dynamic range isn't even an accident - it's applied purposely prior to the cutting of the master LP's because the physical medium is incapable of storing more than 60db of dynamic range (compared to over 96db on CD and over 120db in a HD file) so the volume range of the recording has been altered to "smush" together the softest and loudest sounds so the entire range can fit properly in the grooves of an LP. In other words, the LP is far less like the original recorded sound being placed on it than the results of even standard 16/44.1 digital. No one disuptes that LP sounds better to many (myself included). But, how does one respond to a belief that your preference means that the LP contains a more accurate representation of the original (as opposed to one you simply like better), when this is demonstrably the opposite of the truth? How about your belief that a lot of low and high frequencies are in the LP that are lost to digital?? Again, not only is that demonstrably false, but when the LP is made they remove all ultrasonics (frequencies above 20khz) to avoid overheating the cutting equipment. Analysis equipment shows that frequencies exist on the final LP well over 22khz, but since they weren't in the music actually transferred it is clear that they are "errors" or "noise", although inaudible because it's above your hearing range. You can also clearly see that the CD contains the full range of audible frequencies in the original sound recorded, and when you pass, say, an analog tape recording through analysis software and then a CD made from it through the same software you can SEE that all the low and high frequencies on the original tape are right where they're supposed to be on the CD. The "warmth" you hear in the LP is coming from the opposite of what you are stating - it's not because it has "all" the music (it doesn't) or because it is closer to the original recording being transferred (it isn't). Clearly, whatever the "defects" are in the LP medium are perceived pleasurably by many (including me). When you refer to "a light reading 0's and 1's" it reminds me of original arguments engineers in germany faced when they were developing magnetic tape. Magnetic tape is also used as an analog medium, but can achieve similar or better signal to noise ratios and without the dynamic range compression required on LP's. But, original detractors would write things like "there's no way little magnetized particles can possibly sound as good as the lacquer recordings we currently have", and this was in the 40's when records were '78 and nowhere near current fidelity. The complete lack of understanding of how those "magnetized particles" work (although if they were interested they could have learned about how they really work) and how they are used to reproduce sound leads to a disbelief that this newfangled technology can be as good as the technology they DO understand. Those little 1's and 0's are capable of reproducing any sound, ANY SOUND, even ones way below and way higher than we can hear, as well as encode sound quieter and louder than we can hear (although we don't always have playback equipment capable of playing back these recordings), so any deficiency would be in the method of creating the correct sequence of 1's and 0's. But, your statement implies a lack of belief in the actual ABILITY of light reading 1's and 0's to reproduce sound as well, let alone the reality that they have the ability to (and currently do) reproduce the original sound waves with far GREATER accuracy than any analog medium. That in no way invalidates your preference (or mine) for LP. But that preference does not necessitate or justify the propagation of demonstrably false beliefs about either analog or digital sound recording.

Congrats on the Grammy Nomination for the sweet packaging. I know you guys and gals worked hard on it, nice to be recognized for material from 24 years ago!!!