Grateful Dead

dead.net the official site

Hi four winds, Sorry, what compression??? There is no compression of any kind in a 16/44.1 file. I'm not sure what you are referring to. But that is literal. There is NO compression of ANY kind in a 16/44.1 file. These are not mp3's. A few (maybe more than a few) posts down, posted several links that explains the scientific basis behind digital audio files (not compressed digital audio files). I can't make you do this, but did you bother reading them at all? Several of these links make Reference to the scientific reasons there is no audible difference (LITERALLY) between 16/44.1 and 24/96 or 24/192. Except that in some not too common cases the higher "resolution" files actually can be inferior because the ultrasonic inaudible frequencies they can contain can in some cases cause audible and distortion in the audible range, although in all scientific studies to date no one can hear any difference at all. The 44.1 files don't have this problem, as they don't contain frequencies above 22khz - frequencies above human hearing level. Forgive me, I really do not mean to be insulting or condescending, but the nature of your statement referring to any kind of compression difference between standard def and hi def audio files leads me to believe you haven't bothered to look into how digital audio works and are buying into the most common fallacies. The statement literally makes no sense as there is no difference in compression level of any kind between so called standard definition and so called high resolution audio files. Standard def files are smaller because they use 16-bits to encode each volume level sample and take use 44,100 samples per second as opposed to using 24-bits and say 192,000 samples per second. The science and mathematics both state as fact, not opinion, that 44,100 samples per second is sufficient to encode and reproduce any frequencies up to half that number, 22,050hz which is well above your hearing level, and 16-bits is sufficient to encode the dynamic range of any recording you currently and are likely to own unless you envision at some point buying a recording with enough dynamic range to make your ears bleed if you had equipment that could reproduce it. Did you know that each of the "samples" taken either once every 44,100 times or 96,000 or 192,000 times a second, and stored in either a 16-bit or 24-bit binary number, contains a volume measurement AND NOTHING ELSE?? How can nothing but a stream of volume measurements of music represent the actual music??? Read and find out. If your ears are being fatigued by 16/44.1 files they will have the EXACT DUPLICATE experience with 24/192 files. Again, these are not MP3 or other lossy format. The ONLY difference between the 16/44.1 and the 24/96 files is the dynamic range and frequency range they contain, and the links I posted explain why 16 bits and 44.1khz files already hold all the dynamic range the music being recorded has, and already contains all the frequencies you can hear. You already understand how LP's work. Don't you think it would be a good idea to learn how digital audio works before you start paying more for files that all the science (not to mention the society of audio engineers) have no difference (literally) to what comes out of your speakers? We're not talking about MP3 or any other compression technology here. We're talking about the COMPLETETELU UNCOMPRESSED 16/44.1 and 24/192 files that will both produce identical sound waves out of your speakers even if you were to compare them visually with sound wave analysis software. Since I take it that you DO experience ear fatigue from E72 releases, I am sorry to tell you that this must be from how the masters sound that they are using to create the CD's and downloads. Getting 24/96 or 24/192 will do NOTHING to mitigate this, and will not help you connect on a deeper emotional level with it unless it is via placebo effect. The sound waves being represented by BOTH 16/44.1 and 24/192, being identical in all audible frequencies, both reproduce sound waves so far closer to being identical to what was input to create them compared to an analog medium that it's staggering if you haven't looked into it. These are not compressed files where if you were to look at them visually they hardly even resemble the originals. The sound waves produced by either 16/44.1 or 24/192 are BOTH virtually perfect representations of the sound that went in. The science of looking at in what ways they may be different from what went in is dealing with differences so much smaller than with previous music reproduction methods that it's like comparing molehills and mountains. Hi Res files are NOT being offered because they are in any way superior to your ears. They are being offered because there is a demand for them. And, there is a demand for them because people believe all sorts of things like 16/44.1 is somehow more compressed than 24/192 (it's not), or that greater bit-depth means greater music depth (it does not - it ONLY and ENIRELY determines the difference between the loudest and softest sounds that be contained, and 16-bits can go from a light bulb to a jackhammer), that higher sampling rate yields a smoother sound wave (it doesn't - that's not how digital audio works - when it's converted back to an analog wave it is as smooth as the wave the went in - and 44.1 samples per second can reproduce any frequencies of 22.05khz and below with literally 100% accuracy because of the mathematics behind how it works). The demand is there because many (most?) people do not know much about digital audio files, and there is a lot of money to be made by many people who are exploiting then (and in many cases don't know any more about how digital audio works and believe it themselves.) Truly scientifically done listening tests (not to mention visual analysis of the sound waves) will tell you what you need to know about so called "hi resolution" audio files. But, go ahead and buy the "hi resolution" files if they become available. It's not my money. But, it really is worth scrolling down and checking out those links (and the discussion up to this point) before you spend that money.

What you really want in the end is a recording that is non ear fatiguing so that you can listen for hours and connect on a deeper emotional level. Compressed files do not give you this option. E72 I can't listen at a nice volume level without ear fatigue. We really need those 24/96 files released.

Hi Unkle Sam, If you're serious you can easily hear the difference in fidelity between LP and CD at a modest cost by purchasing a modern excellent classical orchestral recording where you can get both the CD and LP. I would suggest using Raphael Kubelick's recording of Dvorak's New World symphony because the LP should still be relatively available and the CD digital transfer is highly acclaimed by audiophiles. It isn't an accident that the first genre of music to start using digital technology for recording was classical orchestral recording; they generally require the higher dynamic range than other genres, and the classical musicians and their engineers were more keenly aware than others of the technical inability of LP technology to record this music without large dynamic range compression. Once CD tech had matured (it really didn't take very long), it was quickly clear that digital had overcome the limitations that had plagued the classical recording industry since its inception. Even though I love the "warm" sound of LP, and on much music the technical requirements are smaller than for classical, so LP technical deficiencies are outweighed by the "warmth" distortion, for classical which was losing so much more through LP's limitations, digital was a huge difference. Unlike the hi def vs standard def digital debate, you will IMMEDIATELY hear the difference when you compare that orchestral recording on CD with no dynamic range compression to the LP. I don't know how much further down the thread you read, but do not mistake my explaining how digital CD format is technically superior to analog, with the idea that I support so called "high resolution" digital because I dont. I posted several links that explains how digital audio works and why there is no real benefit to the listener using more than the stanard 16-bits and 44.1khz sampling rate. However, The superiority of CD is very often compromised, especially in rock, pop and hip-hop and other very popular radio music because for quite a few years they have been purposely compressing the dynamic range on the CD's so they will sound louder at a given volume setting on the radio, and so everything from the softest to the loudest sounds can be more easily heard in a noisy environment like a car. This willful lowering of the quality of the recorded music has no relation to the capabilities of the CD format; it is an intentional lowering of the quality to bring the dynamic range down, sometimes way down. This isn't universally the case though, obviously. I think it is unlikely, for instance, that the GD team uses this practice.

on your Grammy nomination. Well deserved, as is the award itself. Still lovin My # 5000.

wow, that's a lot of technical stuff to write down, thanks for the explanation of how it's all suppose to work. Now, if I could just get my ears to hear it.

I agree, the early problems were a combination of both the early digital technology and its application by engineers steeped in the completely mature and largely perfected analog technology. These early efforts at digital audio helped sour many on the technology permanently (which is silly). Furtwangler, a conductor, and Huberman, a violinist, two of the most unique and revered musicians of their time both made so very few recordings compared to their peers because the early attempts to record them in the teens and twenties convinced them tha record disks were so bad they avoided the recording studio from then on, even though by the fifties the analog revording techniques had improved so much they were really quite excellent. History repeats itself.

I wouldn't say "not from any inherent problems in the technology itself." (!) From the very same article you quoted, there is this: "It is true that the very first generation of digital recorders, like the Sony F1 and early DAT machines, didn’t sound as good as the state-of-the-art analog machines. However, the low cost and ease-of-use of the new digital machines guaranteed their success. Luckily, pro audio and audiophile users pushed manufacturers to create better sounding converters and better tools to process the sound (now known as plugins)." And if I am not mistaken, you said yourself that some early AD-DA converters were an issue. So let's not paint digital audio as great from the get-go. It was deservedly reviled by many at first, partially due to technological issues.

Hi Marye, Yes, early digital recording was not very good, but not from any inherent problems in the technology itself. Here's a blurb from the following link: http://recordinghacks.com/2013/01/26/analog-tape-vs-digital/ "It is my belief that much of the pain of switching over to digital recording was due to the tools that engineers had mastered for analog recording. For instance, applying EQ and compression (or no compression) to tape to make up for the color that the tape added didn’t sound so great when recording to digital. Bright FET microphones and harsh transistor preamp tones became rounded off in a pleasing way on tape, and by the 100th mix pass, the high-end was rolled off and the transients smeared so much that the final mix sounded phat, warm and fuzzy. It took experienced engineers a minute (or years) to gather their thoughts, re-examine their tools and learn how to take advantage of the clarity, quiet, and unforgiving purity of digital recording." My problem with what Neil is doing is that the marketing accompanying the Pono to which he has lent his name is propagating some of the most common misunderstandings and misconceptions about what is being termed hi res audio. Regardless of how the debate ultimately turns out (I think it's already pretty much decided), there is no getting around the simple flat out falsehoods being stated. They take advantage of people not understanding digital audio in its most fundamental basics. For instance, if you ask most folks to describe what a single "sample" consists of in digital audio, what one sample of 16-bit or 24-bit audio contains, how many would answer that the only thing it contains is an amplitude (volume) level and nothing more. That each sample is just one single volume level. How many would then go on to try to find out how a whole series of such "volume" measurements can fully encode music? The Pono folks take advantage of this lack of technical knowledge to propagate ridiculous and false concepts like "smoother" sound with more samples. In fact, based on the difference between reality and what is in those marketing materials, and given my respect for Neil in general, I find it unlikely he has actually looked into the scientific mechanisms underlying how digital audio works, maybe because the idea that if 16-bit at 41,100 times per second is good then 24-bit at 192,000 times per second must be better seems so much like just common sense that he never saw the need to look into it farther beyond questioning why files at this resolution are not being made available (and making it his mission to do so), especially because I am sure he is aware that it is these higher resolution files that comprise the original recordings that the professionals use to mix/master his music. Why look further, when the common sense is so compelling?

Back in the day, he came to a tech conference I'm involved with to show off Lionel trains, for which he'd hired a friend of mine to go around the country recording different trains so the various Lionel models would have the right noises. Having seen Neil in rock star mode many times, I loved seeing him just geek out and have fun with a technically sophisticated bunch. As a result of this, we did an interview. In which he veered off at some length to deride the then-current state of digital recording (this circa 1994). This stuff's been on his mind for quite a while!

Congrats on the Grammy Nomination for the sweet packaging. I know you guys and gals worked hard on it, nice to be recognized for material from 24 years ago!!!